75 Hard: The Wins, The Fails, and Everything in Between with Chris Nicolaysen

I’m Melissa Shanahan and this The Law Firm Owner Podcast Episode #163.

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Melissa Shanahan: Hi, guys. Welcome to this week's episode. Today, I am talking with Chris Nicolaysen. This is his third time on the podcast and always a pleasure to have him. I had him on today because of a couple of things.

One, he did 75 Hard, and it really inspired me to go for it. And I, as I'm recording this intro, I'm done with 75 Hard. The end didn't go how I thought because I got COVID. But it’s okay, I have a plan on how to round things out. I gotta tell you 75 Hard changed my life, for the better. I didn't do it perfectly. So technically, hardcore people would say I didn't do it. But I don't care. It changed my life for the better.

And so, I got to have a conversation with Chris about 75 Hard, about the benefits, about what was extremely difficult and what wasn't so difficult, that I thought was going to be insane for him and his experience. I also talked to him about a concept that he shared recently in a conversation, that I really loved and I would love to think more deeply about. So, I wanted to ask him about it and for him to share his brain around the topic.

This is just a casual conversation to shed some light on what I've been up to lately, in terms of discipline and challenge on the mental and physical side of things. And then, also catching up with Chris about just what's going on in his brain. So, I hope you enjoy today's episode. If you don't know, by the way, Chris is from Springs Law Group. You can find two episodes in the past I've done with both he and his partner, Jake. They are a P.I. firm, auto accident only, in Colorado Springs.

I've worked with them for three years now, and oh my gosh, their growth is ridiculous. Like the kind of growth that people want to cut their pinky off for. We've had a lot of fun celebrating them behind the scenes, and all the growth. And you know, while their firm is growing… I think the reason their firm is growing is because the owners focus on growing themselves. And you kind of get to hear a piece of that today, from behind the scenes.

So, I hope you enjoy today's conversation. Thank you, Chris, for coming on again. Let's dive in with Chris Nicolaysen.

Okay, everyone, welcome to the podcast. I have someone very special for you today. Chris Nicolaysen is back with us. This is your third time on the podcast, I think. Yeah?

Chris: I believe so. Yes, it is. Yeah.

Melissa: So, Chris is one of the co-founders of Springs Law Group, who is a private client. And I wanted to have him on today to share a little bit about 75 Hard, which is a challenge he has done, completed, like a pro. And so, we're going to talk about that. I'm doing it right now; my end date is like eight days from now. So, I'd love to talk about that. And then, there's another concept that you shared with me, when I saw you recently, that I was like, “Oh, we have to talk about that, too.”

So, thanks for coming on the podcast just to chat, and let everybody listen in on a conversation we would probably have otherwise, anyway.

Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Excited to chat about it.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, okay, so first, 75 Hard. I've wanted to do a podcast about 75 Hard, and I did want to wait till I got a little further into it. And now I'm almost done, to be honest about my failure with 75 Hard. I'll tell everybody what it is. But get into how it's really changed your life and the effect that it had on you to the extent that it did, and then same for me. You want to share what it is?

Chris: Yeah, I'll share what it is. So, 75 Hard was created by a gentleman named Andy Frisella. He's an entrepreneur and podcaster. He, I believe, started 1st Phorm®, the supplement company, and is based out of St. Louis. He used to run a podcast called The MFCEO podcast. On that he started the 75 Hard Challenge.

And so, what 75 Hard is, it’s 75 days in a row of the following. And, Melissa, tell me if I miss one. Two 45-minute workouts; one of them must be outside, and they have to be at least three hours apart. And then, you have to choose a diet of your choosing and follow that for 75 days. There's no drinking alcohol or cheat meals during that time. Drink one gallon of water a day, for the 75 days. And, read ten pages of a self-help or entrepreneur, or a better help type of a book…

Melissa: Nonfiction, I think he says.

Chris: Yeah, nonfiction. Cannot be audio. So, audiobooks don't count and…

Melissa: Progress picture.

Chris: Yes. You have to take a progress picture every day. I started it, actually... I tried 75 Hard I think it's been about two years ago with my wife, and our business partner, Jake. And so, we tried it. And, I think we each got through about 30-35 days.

Gretchen and I were actually headed up to go see a gentleman named Kishi Bashi from Colorado Springs, up to Denver. We were in Castle Rock and grabbed dinner. And we had already done some of our stuff for 75 Hard at that point. About halfway through, looked at each other and said we were both so tired that we skipped the show, and went home and went to sleep. The next day, we stopped 75 Hard because we're like, I don't want to have to miss things, you know, at that point.

The interesting thing about 75 Hard, what Frisella says is, that this is a mental challenge, period. You will find physical results from this, but it is a mental challenge. And so, for me, not being able to go see an artist, that I was really excited about seeing, whose music I've been a fan of for a while, I saw the opportunity to see him right then, but I made a choice not to; it was just kind of a downer, so I stepped away.

But then this year, on January 1st, I told myself, I was going to do it again. It was just me. And, it was about me saying that I could do this thing and finish it. And if you know me at all, I'm generally somebody that's okay with like, being like, “I'm good I didn’t finish it.” I don't get into this type of a thing, really. I'm not that person. And so, even when I fail, I don't look at it as a failure. I'm not going to beat myself up super bad over it. I'm just going to be like, “Okay, that didn’t work out, on to the next thing.”

But I told myself, I wanted to commit for the 75 days. And so, I started January 1st, 2022. I walked through and did it. Ended up getting a dog actually, a few weeks into it, to help with my outside walks. But this was when we were having, in Colorado, at least… You know, at certain points, the temperature was minus nine, when I was outside, doing my walks, things like that.

I am generally, too, a big bourbon drinker; so not drinking. But for me, part of it was the idea that my parents are, you know, my dad was an alcoholic, and it’s something to where I enjoy the taste of it. So, I just wanted to know that I could control certain narratives. And, it helped me do that. So, I lost some weight, which was great. Drank a lot of water. And yeah, I mean, definitely read more than I had. But what also helped, too is I listened to…

So, I read my actual 10 pages, but I also listened to audiobooks while I was on my walks with the dog. And so that helped, in a sense, for me to kind of balance a couple different things that way. But that's kind of my experience with it. I ended March 17th. And so, that's kind of been, that was my journey through it.

I had a friend of mine reached out to me. I've only known two other people that have completed it, prior to me doing it personally. And, one of them reached out and just gave me this long list of things where he talked about it. He's like, just basically talk to your friends and close family and say, “Hey, I'm going to be doing this thing. It is going to be a disruption. But it's important to me. And, I just need you to kind of understand my crazy for a little bit. Because this isn't a permanency. The goal is not to make it a permanent lifestyle change, to be this intense all the time.” Yeah, it's not a sustainable thing like that. I'd be curious...

Melissa: Okay, that's great. I didn't know some of the stuff you just shared. So, I started this, it's funny that I don't know the exact date. But it was a Tuesday, towards the end of April, and have nine days left. So, I'm not sure exactly what start date was.

I have always been into fitness. I've been a health nut. And then I had my son. And I just never quite got my groove back. You know, lots of excuses and reasons for that. But I was really getting sick of not feeling like myself. And I knew that the discipline that was going to be required for me to really get back to what I felt like was myself, was going to be intense. And I just never was quite willing to do it.

You went through 75 Hard, I'd heard of it before, I think because of you guys. But then when you did it and you completed it, and you and I talked about it a few times. It was like, “Oh, I think I want to do this, but I'm afraid to do it. This sounds so intense.” Anyway, decided to pull the trigger and started at the end of April. Before I go further, I want to ask and this would be good for everybody, what nutritional protocol did you pick for yourself?

Chris: I actually picked intermittent fasting, where I had an eating block. I used an app called the Zero® app to track it. But that was, to me, the extent of my diet; you get to choose whatever it is. I've had some people that I know that have done it, where they're just saying we're cutting out sugar, or we're cutting out drinking soda, or we're going to stop eating by a certain time. Other people… I think one of the things is, if you try to get too intensive and you know, too narrow, it's too restrictive for such a long period of time, along with everything else you have to do. So there needs to be some flexibility there, a little bit. How about you?

Melissa: I chose intermittent fasting, that was thanks to you. I didn't even think about that as an option. At first, I did it soft. I said, intermittent fasting was first, I had to do that. But then also, no sugar, no flour, was what I was going to try to stick to majority of the time. But the hardcore thing was intermittent fasting. And I have stuck to the no sugar, no flour, which has been, I think, a game changer.

When I started, I had a really rough, I guess withdrawal, the first up to ten days. I remember that day ten lifted, something lifted. But I was dark, and it felt for me, very hormonal. It felt similar to postpartum hormones stuff. When you feel like it's happening to you. It's not like your mind is dark, and you're thinking dark things. It just feels like something's happening to you. So, I had a hunch it was hormonal.

And I was really worried, actually, for a bit, Derek was worried. And then I had a realization, sort of midway through, day four or five, like, “Oh, my gosh, I wonder if this is, if this is happening because I ripped the Band-Aid™ with all this, like alcohol, sugar, flour.” Plus, I was doing intermittent fasting. But I didn't want to stop because I thought, well, this is the effect of it, I need to just follow this through, even though it sucks.

I need to rearrange my schedule. Let myself kind of get through this period, and then see what happens. And, I'm glad I did that. I'm glad I stuck with it. Because I felt really good, really fast after that. And so, the whole way through what I did… So, I failed. This is the truth. I stopped reading the ten pages a day, I stopped like worrying about it. I just took it off the table because it was becoming more of a stress. And, I didn't really care about it.

One of the reasons I did this challenge was, kind of like you said, one of the mental aspects was to flex that muscle of doing things when you don't feel like doing them. But I was doing that with nearly everything. And so, I took off the table the book reading, and left everything else in, and actually progress picture. That was another thing I let go.

But I did I stayed hard-core committed to the two workouts a day, one outside, and the way I was eating. I weighed myself every day just to… I know it's not about the number, I can hear people saying, “That's not healthy.” I know, it's not about the number, but it kept me in tune with... Listen, I had weight to lose. I have never been that heavy in my life. I had held on to that weight for so long. It was like, you know, this is not unhealthy, that I'm watching like myself get back to my natural weight.

But then we went to MaxLawCon. When we went there, there was one night I was exhausted, and I did yoga anyway, as the second workout. Then, there was one night I was so exhausted, I was like, “Man, this sucks. I'm not giving up on my efforts for the rest of 75 Hard, but this is like, I'm not going to do this tonight.” I had to figure out how I felt about that, and try to reconcile that in my head.

Because it really was like I had a choice. And, I made the choice to not do it. And so, typical Melissa would have, like all-or-nothing, would have quit everything. I didn't let myself do that. So, anyway, got back on the horse and have stayed really good. I think there's one other time I did one workout a day instead of two. But other than that, that's it. And, I've stayed really solid with it. And man, it's paid off. It's great.

Chris: I think what's interesting about it is… For a people that don't know about it, the rule is you go 75 days. If you miss any one of those things, on any of those days… So, if I would have, and I've known people that have actually just missed a one progress pic, like on day 40. When you miss that progress pic, you're technically supposed to start over at day one. That is the rule, if you stick hard to the rule.

However, I would say this, and again, this is why I, like back a couple of years ago we got through you know 35-40, stopped, and then stepped away for a while, came back to it and then did it. I do think though, you can kind of equate some of the learning pieces from this, even with what you do and what you talk about on your pod all the time, with Quarterly Rocks, things like that.

Because you, yourself, have looked at me. I know you have, and said, “You chose this Rock for a reason. What made it not so good now? Or, why didn't you… Now that you're further along in it,” almost the same question can be asked. Because I've looked at Rocks the same way and have said, this just sucks. But it's that thing of, there's a reason I chose it. And it's not… The reason I chose to do the 75 Hard was for mental.

I actually even have a Rock, from I believe it's 2/1 of this year or 2/4 2021, which was to record 45 videos. We're actually 17 in, still. We're still doing it, but it wasn't completed within the timeframe that we had chosen. But it's so similar to what you're doing now. So, it's not just fail, and I'm stopping and I quit forever. It's I like it; I want to still have something to show. You see what I mean, in a way? I mean, do you think there's still lessons learned to come out of it?

Melissa: Yes. 100%. And I thought about this a lot. And how did I want to talk about this on the podcast? Because accountability is a big deal for like, do what you say you're going to do. It just is, I think that's a big deal. And, I'm never a fan of any of my clients beating themselves up. As long as they extract lessons and move forward, that is the thing that matters the most.

And so, I really had to watch it for myself, because I was like, part of me just want to throw my hands up. I can't do this epic challenge, like, alright, good run. But I thought, no, no, no, I'm not going to let myself do that. Like, alright, there's going to be some lessons learned here in terms of like, the decisions I'm making and why I'm making them and I need to really take stock. And you don't get out of this entirely, like, keep going.

And as much as I did want that mental piece of experiencing discomfort and doing the thing anyway. But a huge reason I did this was for health, and losing weight. And so it was like the stuff that was hard to do, to honor, but that lined up with what I was really wanting. That's the stuff I stuck with, or I'm still with now.

Chris: Well, let me say this. Let me piggyback on that, just for a minute. So, you just talked about the things that stuck. So, for me, I've I had some people reach out to me after I finished and talk about just wanting to lose some weight. I actually don't view it as a weight loss apparatus or challenge. I think it's a mental health challenge, or I think it's a mental, not mental health, but a mental challenge, a mental toughness challenge. But that's the way I took it.

And what was interesting, and even about what you're saying to where it's helped you kind of find that fitness piece you were looking for again, I actually, after I was done, I checked out of all fitness stuff after. So, which is why I've hired a trainer now, just to help me slowly get back into enjoying the gym again. Because it was such an intensive thing for that period of time. I needed somebody to kind of just helped me to be accountable to, but also just to help me slowly get back into it again.

I think from a mental side, the reason that Andy talks about it, he's like if you do this and fully do it, you then, like let's say five years down the road and something tough comes up, you know that you can hone in for a period of time and just commit, to act. He's like, you can dig deep back into this again, and say because I did this, it means that I can go into this thing, going forward. That's kind of where the good piece of it can be. But again, I don't think it's sustainable. Like, a sustainable thing.

Melissa: Okay, so talking about flexing that muscle of like doing things you don't want to do. There have been three times, that I am willing to admit, I was literally angry that I had to go work out. Everything in me was just pissed and wanted to be like; why am I doing this? Like I would rather drink coffee and sit at home with Derek and my kid on Sunday morning. But I need to go. And Derek, thankfully Derek, would be like, “Are you going to go?” I don't want to do this right now. Did you ever have any of that? Because I definitely did.

Chris: I did more the first time. I think this time, because it was just me, I didn't have somebody to kind of help reaffirm the fact that I wanted to be done. But this time I also I kind of treated it like my marriage, in a sense. Saying, “I'm fully committed to doing this thing. And there's nothing I'm going to do that's kind of break me out of it.” So, it's the same way I've treated my marriage as you know, I'm fully committed to it. This is it.

And that there's no “out”. A couple times I remember… So, I think around day ten, it was about 10:30 at night. Gretchen and I were upstairs, we were in bed watching TV, and all of a sudden… In this moment, literally I'm getting ready to you know, I set my alarm for the morning, getting ready to crash. And I'm like, “Oh crap!” I like stand up in a panic and Gretchen's like, “What the heck's going on?” And I'm like, “I haven't read my ten pages yet.”

So, I literally ran downstairs, read my ten pages, went back up, went to sleep.

I went to a conference mastermind in Arizona during it, and obviously while certain events were going on, and people, you know; I had to go work out. Or, while people were out having a good time drinking and things like that I was, you know, just doing other stuff, too. So, making sure too that before the conference, I was getting up to read my ten pages, to go do my morning walk, things like that.

And so, it was harder at times potentially, to be present in those types of moments. Because I had this checklist that I still had to run through every day, that was kind of consuming for this period of time. But I do think it's something potentially, that like high level athletes and things like that end up doing, because they're so zone focused, that certain other things have to fall to the side.

Melissa: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Okay, so I guess, the working out piece; we've kind of talked about that. Drinking, you just mentioned, like, there were some social, you weren't doing what they were doing. That was hard. There's been also like three times that I've been in situations that were social.

One of them was a mastermind that I'm a part of, and they had this big event, like a wedding reception, but it wasn't a wedding, at night. There was music and dancing, and a DJ. And I didn't want to dance on the dance floor with all my friends who were kind of drunk. And they were like, come on, come out here. And I'm just like, am I not fun if I don't drink? I mean, I think am. I didn't want to, I mean, I wanted to have a glass of champagne that night; and that was hard. But there was this weird, to my surprise, calm satisfaction, as much as I wanted to drink, it wasn't enough that I was like…

With the working out, not wanting to work out that is the hardest part for me. If I give myself any room to think at all, I just screw myself even further, because I'm going to… Just put your shoes on and go, is how that needed to look. But with drinking, drinking has been a pretty normal part of like a big piece of my life, just culturally and socially, since I was 20, early 20’s. And with family and my husband's family, it's just kind of what you do.

And so, to cut that out was a pretty big deal. And I was impressed with myself that I could hold the space for; I did want to have a glass of champagne. And there was like a sense of pride that like I was going to feel amazing in the morning. And I was going to sleep really well that night. And so, other than social situations, was it a struggle at all to not drink?

Chris: Well, maybe not as much as I thought, for as much as I was drinking before. I mean, I'd have two glasses of bourbon at home probably most nights. And just casual. I mean, sitting down while we're watching TV or what have you. I mean, I don't go out a lot. But just at home, sure, but I was able to stop. And so that was helpful. I do say even on like a different idea of drinking side, is a lot of people that I've talked to really worry about the gallon of water. I actually don't think that’s as much of a struggle. Yeah, I don't think it's as bad as what people think.

But I would disagree, you can tell me if I'm wrong, I don't think that working out was actually the hardest thing for you. It's the ten pages. Yes, it’s the 10 pages. Because if you said goodbye to it. And what I was saying to that, what is fascinating about that, I'm not a reader. Even as an attorney, I'm not a physical book reader as much these days, I'm into audio. And so, for me that was rough. I ended up reading The Slight Edge.

I think I read a Sacred Journey of the Peaceful Warrior because I listened on audio to the Way of the Peaceful Warrior. And then a couple other books. But The Slight Edge was a good one to start with, because it's similar to Atomic Habits. And it's only actually in print, Olson doesn't have an audiobook of it. And what was interesting is, by reading The Slight Edge, and it's just ten pages. And so, that was one that I just had to slow down and actually get through.

But that led me to listening to Way of the Peaceful Warrior, which led me to a lot of like mindset shift through the whole thing, which really helped out quite a bit. So, I think that helped my journey and in that first quarter of the year. So yeah, it was really helpful.

Melissa: That's such a good point. If I would have stuck with that, I may have had less resistance on the other things because it just would have been that mental nutrition. To keep the bar raised mentally. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I'm kind of bummed I didn't stick with that.

Chris: No, it's okay. I mean, it's that thing. I mean, I think that was the emotional train, intelligence training that we went through a while back, where they talk about that though, too, right? What we what we resist persists.

Melissa: Yeah. Because I actually do wish I read more than I do. And listen, this is all excuses. But these are the reasons, in my head, why it was so hard. As you know, it is a time commitment to give to this. I mean, hour-and-a-half every day of the workouts, plus just the little moments that you need to prepare yourself to be able to be successful that day, filling up your gallon jug. Like little things that have to be part of the routine.

And yeah, it's almost like at the end of the night, I think my fatigue was so high and having a toddler, which again, that's an excuse, but that's part of what led to it. But it's like I had a toddler and after the toddler went down was when I was supposed to go read. And at that point, I was like, hell no.

Chris: So, we have a couple of friends. I know you and I, we have mutual friends, who I know that are doing it as a couple right now, too. Tyson and Amy. Yeah, so they're through probably, I think, close to day twenty, by now. And it's one thing I was talking to Tyson about, too, is the idea of what time period in your life you do it.

So, you have to look at your calendar and go like: Am I going to a lot of conferences? Do I have a lot of events coming up? Big life events that would keep me from… Because I'm not going to schedule this when I'm going on a trip to Mexico. That doesn't make sense. I don't want to do that. But also, for me, at least, I mean, I'm forty-seven, married, my two kids are grown up and out of the house. I own a firm, but I don't have a caseload.

For me, it was an ideal time for me to do it. My days were somewhat flexible, where I could work it. If I'm in your shoes, having a toddler, I don't know if I’d ever think about doing that. So, what you've done so far, I don't know if it's an excuse, because that's the reality. And the reality says holy camoly, your circumstances are very different than somebody that just kind of just has, you know, a fairly open, you know, realm without a lot of distractions. And so, that's where it can be a bit different.

Melissa: I guess, I am really proud of myself. And I think I would also be really proud of myself had I… I'm wondering, the sense of pride, I actually don't think is different than, although maybe it would be, if I would have done everything perfectly till the end. Of course, I would have been really proud of myself. But when I think about… I'm still really proud.

Do I want to maybe do it again someday? Yeah, because I want to do it like perfectly. But yeah, net-net, this experience has been a huge positive; just getting my system clean. I know it's not supposed to be health focused. But that was a big deal for me. And I just I feel better mentally I feel clearer and better, more energy, more ideas. And I have lost fifteen pounds like that. And I'm not done. I got another week or so.

So, I think net-net, this has been a huge positive. Which is kind of why I wanted to do the podcast with you about this to listeners, because I think people will roll their eyes at the challenge. And, I didn't do it perfectly. You did. But for both of us, the experience was net positive.

Chris: Absolutely. What I’ll says, is like I heard, I think it was Colin Cowherd years ago say this, and I think he was talking about like Jordan at the time. He goes, “Jordan is great at his job. But he's good or okay at his family.” He's like, “You can't be great at your job. And great at your family.” He's like, “One thing has to give,” so even in this case, you can't be perfect at 75 Hard without having your family kind of be okay for at least these 75 days.

Ultimately you made the choice to say, “no, I'd rather…” because you get to experience this with Lachlan for such a limited period of time that you're like, “I'd rather be great at being a mom right now.” You know what I mean? And good at 75 Hard. I don’t know, I would give yourself some grace in that kind of scenario right there.

Melissa: Well, thanks. That's actually something, too that I do feel like I have been less around Lachlan because of the workouts right, mostly. The morning workout is always before he gets up. But the afternoon one is when I get home from work. I'm usually the one to catch him and the second Derek can watch him, then I'm gone like to go work out again. So have seen him less, but I'm a better mom. So, it's kind of been a good trade off.

But I wouldn't want to do this forever just like you're saying. It's a concentrated period of time to create a certain result that I was looking for. Doing that, and then you mentioned somebody was like, “I'm going to keep this up even when it's over,” and you're like, “No, you're not.”

Chris: But I think at the end of the day, it's not a sustainable thing. You want to go back to being normal, being a human again, in that sense. But I will say, too, if somebody wants to try out there's an app out there for it. I think it's $4.99 to buy it on iTunes®. It's well worth it. The checklist helps. You walk through it, and helps keep you accountable. I highly, highly recommend the app.

Melissa: I don't think I could have done it very well without that app. I think it would have been hard to keep track.

Chris: The two things that helped me were the app and then I put up a Post-it™ on my mirror, for whenever I get ready in the morning, that just says ‘progress pic’ on it, so that I would never forget to do that. And I did it the same time every morning. Yeah, but that was that was literally it. So, right before I weighed myself, I would take the progress pic.

Melissa: Yeah. If anybody is on the fence or curious about it, I would say go for it. I think the experience can be net positive, even if it's not perfection. Listen, if you try it, the idea is that you go into it thinking, planning to succeed. And you do have to make adjustments. But I don't know. Like, I think my relationship with my husband is better. Because I feel like myself more.

And like you said, something you mentioned, someone told you set expectations with those around you. That was a big deal is getting Derek on board for like, what he was going to have to contribute so that I can make this possible. That had to be talked about upfront, because it was a lot of catching for him, that otherwise he won't need to do. He'll get a break after next week, as well. Okay. I guess to round out the 75 Hard conversation. Drinking water, I agree, that was not nearly as hard as everybody would think it would be. Progress pic, that's not hard. Yeah, just need to do it.

Chris: The problem with it, it's such a simple thing. That is probably one of the easier things to forget because it's so simple.

Melissa: Yes. And being outside, that was good for me. Sunshine every morning, first thing. You did it, man, that's another thing. You did it when it was freezing. I don't know what I would have… I would like to think that I would have stuck to it.

Chris: I think in this case, it was interesting. It actually just it made me think about it. Like with the business, when we started the business out. I told myself, I'm never going to go work for someone else. Again, I'm burning the boats and burning the bridges. I'm doing all of it. I think I told myself with it this time. So, when I started, I'm like, this is it. I am not stopping. Like there's nothing that's going to you know what I mean? I will finish this. So yeah, just became my thing. So yeah, even though even if it's minus nine. I hated it, but…

Melissa: We had your firm retreat earlier this week. And Jake said I did 75 Flaccid. That's what he said. I didn't do 75 Hard. Alright, I'll take that.

Chris: Just a little soft.

Melissa: Well, in the last few minutes... So, I was in Colorado Springs about a month ago, I met up with you and Gretchen and we went for a hike. And we were talking, and you were explaining a concept that I don't know if you developed it, or if you read about it. I really liked it. I wonder if you would share that here. That's like the “snowball effect,” I think you called it.

Chris: It's just something I was thinking about one day, and it just came to like my head, where I was. So, Dave Ramsey has this thing called the snowball effect, right? Or, snowball theory. And if you've ever listened to Dave, it's where you pay your debts smallest to largest. And then, you work on that smallest debt first. And then, you take that money that you would have paid to that, and I'll put it on the next one. And, it all keeps snowballing.

I thought about the snowball in the sense of like a firm. And you know, so when you started out your firm, you're kind of taking all these, you know, little things that you're doing each day. I'm going to write down one system today, right? There's a snowflake. We write it down the next system, we hire an employee, we sign a lease, we get one Google review. Every little thing we're doing is each of these little snowflakes, that are compounding into this snowball.

And it reminds me of us when we first started out. So, we're about five and a half years old. When we first started out, we’re doing family law, estate planning, and P.I., you know, we've got three attorneys. We sign a lease, snowball. We write down a system, snowball. We pivot; that's a different snowball, but it's growing bigger. So then as it's growing bigger, what happens?

Well, then now it's starting to pick up some steam. So then through years 2-3-4, but we need now we need positions. So, then those positions of you know, Operations Manager to paralegal to now associate attorney. They're now not only adding to the snowball and making it bigger and bigger as it's rolling forward, but they're also helping form it and keep it on track, so that it doesn't fall off track.

Because as the snowball is getting bigger, my general thought is it's going to keep gaining momentum. But you know, as the individual that started, it can't be enough to just hold it together. And it's just more than just your employees. So, it's kind of like that one document you have, where you talk about, like, if we do well, who else does well.

So also, it's the vendors that we have; yourself, Kelsey, others, you know, that we have and use that help us kind of shape and form that thing, but to keep it on track, flowing in that direction that we want it to go. So that the business is supported, the team members are supported, the vendors are supported, all of those things. So, it's just kind of this idea that kind of morphs Ramsey's thing a little bit.

It's the idea that as the snowball keeps moving, and it's really what you want. Because I do think at a certain point, it's no longer… And we talked about this even in the last retreat, and where we're at with our firm now, it's not just about figuring out how to trade systems anymore. You know what I mean? There are firms that are there. But that's in those initial stages when it's just being formed. Yeah, but now with ours, that's got enough momentum and size that it's like, there's other bigger things.

So now, you know, it's the visionary, it's about figuring out where's you know, where are we going to shift that ball to? And where's it going to go? Do we have the right people shaping it and keeping it moving forward? Things like that. So, I don't know, just kind of a random thought process on it.

Melissa: I actually didn't think like, I didn't remember that you talked about the shape, meaning that all of these things come together to make it round…

Chris: Right, if not, it becomes this kind of wonky thing that just doesn't… So, if we would have kept it, at least in our firm, if we would have kept Family Law and Estate Planning, it would have been too wonky, it would have fallen off track, and not kept us. By removing those things off, shaping it back, you know, moving, you know what I mean?

I think sometimes you got to ask yourself, these other shiny objects out there may sound right at the moment, but the question is, are they going to keep your momentum? Are they going to keep your firm? Are they going to keep that snowball moving forward? If they do, great. If they're going to be something that potentially is just going to throw a wrench in it? Or, you know what I mean, throw something a little bit of a thing and take it off track, then it's absolutely not worth it.

Melissa: I think about too, there's certain members that I get to work with that are like they have new hires. It's like the first new hires. And the struggle that they're having, the mental struggle is around how to find the bandwidth to really onboard this person. It's an adjustment to shift when it's your first hire, or you're early in hiring. And it matters. Because if you don't onboard well, you're not actually creating, you're not integrating that person in a way that allows that the firm to move forward.

And so, they're wanting to skirt out of things. They know better, but there's part of them, it's like, “I don't have time. They’re going to have to figure it out. I'm going to do my best, but they're got to figure it out.” I get it, but you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Chris: Yeah, that's a slippery slope, too. Because if you say that, I don't have time, they're going to have to figure it out. But they don't figure it out the way you want it, then you get upset, because they’ve got to figure it out right. If look back at the root problem, that it's ultimately because it's on you, because you don't take the time to set clear expectation. And to kind of do that.

I get it, our time has value, especially when we're solo, but solo or small, firm. But I would say potentially, sometimes your onboarding can actually be better when you're smaller, and more intimate, because you have a chance. And then what you can do too, is just have them shadow you. And ask questions. They can just write down questions.

You can do Loom® videos. Like I did a Loom video the other day, I was here and just sent it out through Slack® to the whole team, that just kind of walked them through an issue that we needed to fix. And it just helped everybody. Everybody was able to check it off. But there's ways to still, I think, kind of make sure that things aren't falling off track.

But I have yet to talk to someone who hasn't, you know, who has hired a bunch of people ultimately, and looked back and gone, “Man, that was a really big mistake. I wish I was just still just me doing everything.” You know what I mean? You just don't get to that point. And ultimately, if you have the right personality fits, I think people are generally good once you've got that right personality fit.

And they're wanting to do good by you. They want to do good by their families. And so, they want to help, people want to rise up. Generally, most do you know not all of them, but most do and they want to do a good job and they want some ownership. But the thing is, you just got to give them the lanes to work in. And as long as you're giving them those lanes then every workout alright.

Melissa: The other thing that strikes me when you're talking about this is not everything, but it seems like most things you're mentioning that add to the snowball, could be considered investments; investments of your time of your money, like the vendors that you're paying. Like, what investments are you making to make sure that the snowball is taking the right shape? And well, I don't know how to finish the rest of the sentence.

Chris: Yeah, I think you've got to it. Unless you just you know, it's kind of like that miserly thing like Scrooge McDuck, right, “I'm going to take it all, you know, and put all my money in the thing and swim in gold.” I don't think it works that way.

Melissa: You’re sort of doing that right now. Your firm is doing really well.

Chris: Yeah, but Scrooge would have not shared any of that. He would have kept it all. And so, you need you need people and you have to be, you need people and you need ideas. Because I think it was you that said, even at our last retreat, was did we come up with this one system or not? And I said ‘no’. Every single thing idea that we've had has been stolen. All of it; they've all been stolen. Not even this thing in my head right now. And I'm sure someone out there has talked about it in some form or another.

But, you know, but the ideas that we implement our firm, at least I know, they've all been stolen. Yes, literally, I've heard somebody say, and I'm like, oh, that sounds cool. Or this person is doing very well. So, I'm just going to copy what they're doing. Yeah. And I came into law and in law firm ownership later in life. And when my kids were older, and I needed a faster trajectory anyway. So, I didn’t want to go through those slogs.

Melissa: Yes. And I will say though, you guys have done a really good job of… You use your brain, when you see something somebody else is doing, or you hear about it, you know that that's the idea you want to implement, but you make that fit your firm. That's important to say, because it is easy to just implement blindly what someone else is doing, without thinking about what makes sense for you. And you guys always pause, you always do that to navigate how to make that idea work inside of your firm, or how could it work. There's Yeah, just an openness there.

I just loved the idea of the way that you talked about it. I think it's a really beautiful metaphor to think about that snowball, as your firm, and how are you packing that snow in? How are you? What are you investing in? What choices are you making that are allowing that snowball to be round, and continue to have forward momentum? Is a really cool way to think about it.

And I, for me, it's even useful for me when I stop and think about the decisions that I'm making right now, for Velocity Work. Is it adding to and making the snowball more of a snowball? Or, am I afraid, you know, it helps me see like, am I afraid of making a decision? And so, I'm making my snowball a little wonky here. If needed, just go for it. I think if each person listens to this, just ask themselves, what decisions are you making that's contributing to the snowball? Or, withholding? Yeah, like how can you…

Chris: The other thing is, so it could be contributing to it to help it move forward. It could be adding to adding to it and actually making it wonky. Or, it could be withholding and taking away momentum, right? So, it's not growing the way it needs to, so we're actually withholding momentum.

Melissa: And you know, the other quick piece,

Chris: You do need it I think, potentially. Now, the one thing I will say, after being in, you know, a bunch of different groups and things like that is, but decide how much momentum you want, right? Do you want to be a giant, you know, that big? Or, do you just need it to maintain? If you need to maintain, then you just need the things to keep kind of working around it, right? Yes, just keep it moving forward and be content with that.

So, stop looking at what everybody else is doing. And just keep that maintenance piece moving forward. And I think that's something really important that people need to figure out because it's easy when you go to a conference like MaxLaw, you know, or other legal conferences. I see more and more as they're kind of coming back. To look at everybody else and what they're doing, going, “Man, I wish I was there.”

But the question is, one, do you want to be there? But you also have to understand that everything that it took for people to get there, because like you said, we've had a really good year, good last couple years. But the reality is though, is that when you first met us, not the same. And so, it's just something to where there's a lot of stuff that goes on in between.

Actually, what people want to ask is, not this, I want to be this. I want to know all the things that took to get to that point. What sacrifices? Hard conversations? What things did you implement? What things worked? What didn't work? What have you. And that then is your kind of guidepost to help you kind of get everything formed and moving.

Melissa: Yeah, I think about for you guys, you mentioned vendors recently. Well, so a few things Jay Henderson helped, like he was a part of your snowball. Kelsey Roger is a big part of your snowball. Molly McGrath more recently, has been really useful in rounding out your snowball. I just think of the people that you are... It's like you don't even hesitate, you will invest in the people that you see as like rounding that out and taking the shape it needs to take. And, you know it's going to pay off because things are moving forward. Yeah, really cool.

Chris: If people know me, they know I don't... So, the fact that I went outside for the 75 Hard isn't something generally I would do. I don't camp, I don't do that stuff. So, if you know me, most generally would say, I just…  Because I listen to the Tony Kornheiser podcast, and he always talks about just hiring a worker man to come out and do the thing, and help you like do that. To me it means, shovel his yard or you know, what have you, scrape the ice off his car or what have you.

And in that sense, I'm hiring vendors that are smarter than I am to do the thing. Because the amount of time it would take me to even come close to their lowest level of what they know is ridiculously stupid. Even if I can get an iota of it. So, it's like when I talk to people about you, or about Kelsey or others, I'm like, just talk to them. If I can just get ten minutes. In same thing, if you can just talk for ten minutes, take it take any knowledge.

I talked about this, when we first started out, I think this was back in 2017, early 2018. Gretchen and I had a ten-minute walk with Seth Price across DC. And that ten minutes was one of the bigger trigger points for us in our firm, at a point at a certain point. And so, I think if you can take these nuggets from people, but you know, that are definitely smarter than you out, take it all. I'm not even close to the smartest person in the room, and I'll take any knowledge I can. And I'll have people that are smarter than me, I'll pay them to do the thing.

Melissa: Thanks for coming on to talk about the snowball effect. I love that. It's going to be more rolling around in my brain for a while, I can tell. So, maybe I'll have you back, give us a chance to go deeper. Thanks for sharing your experience with 75 Hard.

I hope it was valuable to listeners because you know, that challenge is out there. People have heard about it. And it seems just asinine to consider. But even though I didn't do it perfectly, I had a really good experience. You had a really good experience. You wouldn't trade it, I don't think. And so, I think hopefully that helps someone who's listening. But yeah, thanks. I can't wait to get next time.

Chris: Absolutely. It’s been a pleasure.

Melissa: Bye-bye.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map / Friday Wrap. If you go to VelocityWork.com it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans. So. that week over week. more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to VelocityWork.com to get your free copy.

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