Intentionality and Implementation: A Conversation with Tara Gronhovd and Pamela Nelson (Part 1)

I’m Melissa Shanahan, and this is The Law Firm Owner Podcast Episode #221.

Welcome to The Law Firm Owner Podcast powered by Velocity Work for owners who want to grow a firm that gives them the life they want. Get crystal clear on where you're going. Take planning seriously and honor your plan like a pro. This is the work that creates Velocity.

Everyone, welcome to this week's episode. We're doing something a little bit different today, and next week as well. I did a two-part interview on the Grounding and Growing Leadership Podcast. That is Tara Gronhovd’s podcast she does with her co-host, Pamela Nelson.

Tara’s company is Align; AlignTransform.com. She's been on our podcast before. She's focused on team dynamics, and the company does such great work. This podcast is an extension of that company.

So, I went back to listen to this first episode, part one episode, because it's been a couple months. As I was listening… It's a very real conversation, back and forth, and they asked some questions about my history and all that. But we do get into a part where we talk about strategic planning. Inside of Velocity Work, we focus on “Make a plan and honor your plan,” and I really hold people's feet to the fire. There's accountability for it.

We talked about that, but what isn't talked about on this episode, and I want to make sure I convey it here for listeners, is that Velocity Work doesn't just help people make plans for the sake of making plans. The plans that we help people make are aligned with the vision of where they want to go.

They're very clear on what they're aiming for so that we can make a plan that's strategically aligned with where they're aiming for. I didn't really talk much about that part in this podcast. We really talked about more accountability, and you make a plan and you need to honor the plan. That is all very true, and discipline is a part of honoring your plans.

I don't want to take away from what I was saying; I agree with everything I was saying. However, what's important to understand here, from my perspective after listening to it, feels like maybe I short-sighted that conversation.

Because when you align yourself with where it is you really want to go, if you know what you're aiming for, that provides motivation to stay disciplined. And if you aren’t making progress towards where it is you really want to go, towards what you're really aiming for, and identifying with that, then motivation will wane faster and harder than it will otherwise. You'll have a hard time staying disciplined because you aren't aligned with where it is you want to go.

So, if you've been listening for a long time, you're like, “Yeah, yeah, Melissa, we got it. We know what you mean.” But it did feel important to clarify for people that maybe don't know my work as well, haven't worked with us, and maybe haven't listened as long. So, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed this part one of a two-part series that I am replaying, republishing, here on our podcast, with their permission.

You can always go listen to these episodes that I'm going to be providing to you and replaying here. You can go listen to them on the Grounding and Growing Leadership Podcast, along with other really great episode content that they are putting out. Thank you, everyone. Enjoy.

Tara Gronhovd: Hi, Melissa.

Melissa Shanahan: Hi. So good to be here.

Tara: I want to tell the audience a little bit about you, and then we can't wait to talk to you. So, Melissa founded Velocity Work after several years at a consulting firm focused on the growth of private practices all across the U.S. And after coaching over 350 doctors, dentists and lawyers, bless your heart, she narrowed her services to law firms only and she started Velocity Work. The host of The Law Firm Owner Podcast, and an extremely effective coach for attorneys running their own firms, Melissa brings her A-game to everything she does. Her energy's infectious; which I can attest to. And the materials she is teaching will forever change how you think. From mindset to vision to productivity and tracking firm data, Velocity Work has helped hundreds of attorneys grow their firms on their terms. Welcome to the Grounding and Growing Leadership Podcast, Melissa.

Melissa: Thank you. It is truly an honor to be on this podcast.

Tara: Both Pamela and I have had the opportunity to be on The Law Firm Owner Podcast, which we have loved to doing. And so, we're just really glad that you're willing to come and hang out with us.

Melissa: Absolutely.

Tara: One of my favorite things about Melissa is that you are just so authentic. I see your expertise all over the place. But one of the ways that I know you help people grow is that you say, “This is how I'm still learning. This is how I'm growing. This is my pain point.”

And so, I just want to encourage the listeners, that while Melissa is such a valuable expert, you also are just really authentic in saying, “Yes, and I had to learn it this way.” So, you're in for a treat today with Melissa.

Melissa: Thank you. Forever student, it feels important. Thank you.

Tara: Melissa, we start every podcast guest by asking their favorite strengths. So, I'm going to let our audience know your top five. They are: Achiever, relator, focused, futuristic and individualization. We're wondering, which one are you leveraging a lot right now?

Melissa: Okay, in thinking about this, relator… I took the Strength Finders almost 10 years ago. And then, I did again with you guys and they had shifted. Relator was the one that stayed in the top five, everything else shifted out. And so, it would be easy to say that one, and I really identify heavily with that one.

However, I think right now, for the phase that I'm in, futuristic is the one that I'm pumped about, that's there and that I can rely on. I didn't used to have that the way that I do now. I can feel that. So, it feels validating to see it in the top five.

I think it's served me well with building this company. That's the one I'm most proud of right now. There's a shadow side, which I'm sure we'll dig into at some point, but it has been the most useful, I think. It's surprising to me.

Tara: Why was it surprising to you? I'm curious.

Melissa: So, I'm married to someone who is a futurist, like for real; in technology and all that. And so, I think, next to him, I am not futuristic. There's a big gap between the way that he thinks about the future, and how it's just ingrained in him versus me. So, maybe that's why it's a little bit surprising to me to see that come up.

Also, knowing that it's there, I can leverage it, which feels helpful. But also, I have spent a lot of my years feeling like I'm fumbling around. Just in the last like, seven, six to seven, it's, “Oh, here we go.” And so, there's something that's clicked into place for me in the last seven-ish years, maybe a little more than that, I don't know, that feels more clear about the future that I always wanted. I just didn't have it. I don't know why. I'm sure we could utilize that.

But once I finally got it, it was like, “Here we go. Now, I can sink my teeth into something.” I think it's a strength that I always wanted to have, but I didn't feel like I had it.

Tara: My guess, was you had it and you either maybe had some other strengths that were roadblocks for it. That’s probably likely. In your top 15 you do have other strengths that are pretty hard driving in the moment; achiever and focused, for example. Your top three will be like to get things done today, and would prevent you from looking at the future.

But I mean, Melissa knowing you, I can see you’re futuristic all of the time and how you think about not just your work, but about your team members, and then also think about your clients. I think one of the things we want to talk to you about today is the work that you do with clients. I'm guessing you're always connecting it to their vision what's possible for the future.

Melissa: Yeah, definitely. Actually, talking about this, I think I used to assign the word, for me, as “hopeful.” Or something a little more fluffy of a word for that. Because when you said certain things get in the way, my top five strengths used to be…

The CEO I used to work for looked at my top five strengths one day, and was like, “Ugh.” That's what he said, literally. Because it was all fluffy. It was like, positivity, relator… Something I don't remember. Which, by the way, are really great strengths to have. But his were very hard driving, competitive. Competitive, is that one of them?

Tara: Competition.

Melissa: Okay, he had that. He had all the top five, right? This was a guy who had built a $50+ million-dollar company, and so when he looked at mine and made that reaction… When you said there's certain things in the way, I had the thought, “I wonder if all the fluffier stuff that I identified so heavily with, was in the way of me being able to flex this muscle,” so to speak.

Tara: Some of our more compassionate, or relationship building, themes when they are not mature, for sure can create roadblocks, just like any of our strengths. I'm guessing part of the journey for you, Melissa, has been letting go of that label of, “Ugh.” And maybe just embracing more of who you are. You only had your top five before, so we don't know where “futuristic” was, right?

Melissa: Yeah, I don't know.

Tara: It could have been in your top 15 and just needed to be dialed up. And so, it's funny to me that that you use the word “fluffy” because I know that that is the last word I would use. [Inaudible]

Melissa: Oh, that's hilarious. You know what? I really liked that you said that. There's nothing wrong with… I don't even like using the word “fluffy” because it almost sounds insulting. I think that those are true strengths if you really understand them, and you can leverage them. They're so powerful.

Tara: But clearly your leader had judgment on them, though. As a side note, I know that we could do a whole other episode on, is how any personality assessment can be used to put people in a box and judge. [Inaudible] really helping them leverage and grow. I see leaders do that all the time. It drives us nuts.

Melissa: Yeah. It felt like his agenda, with having the strength come into our organization, was to get the best out of people. I mean, this person, deep down, really cared about people. But really, this is a company of 200 people, it was a machine for him. And how could he not exploit, but really leverage the people inside of his organization and to help them do that?

So, you have your own little journey as an employee. It felt like a minion, right? You have your own little journey as a minion in this organization, and it is interesting, because it's about you. But then he walks by and there's all this judgment. Didn't you want me to do this?

All the judgment on it, that's an interesting word… It felt like there was a disconnect from leadership, because he was it, and actually applying it. Really, I think, it hurt the organization. I'm just thinking of these things as you're talking. What a bummer, man, he could’ve had a totally different organization, because of who he is.

Tara: Yeah, Melissa, I just want to say, then we're getting into are we serving under a producing leader that just wants to treat you as a minion? And I don't know him, and all of that. Just in general, I'm sure that there are places that were great and helped you to reach a goal. But also, there's a toxicity that comes with somebody that's giving that judgment. Strengths, or any other assessment, can be used in that way.

That's when we're showing up raw in our own strength to say, “Hey, if you're not like me, then you're not going to be able to produce in a way that I want.” But the gift that you bring in your relational style of leadership… So, not the word fluffy, but that actually is able to honor the person and to develop them. As opposed to just have them be a minion that produces ‘like me.’

I'm going to stay long term when somebody honors who I am, and then leverages my strengths to actually make your company better. And so, in that space, I just want to say, shame is off of you from that comment. I’d just uproot that.

This is grounding and growing, and part of the grounding aspect is taking those toxic things and getting them out of our soil; what's not serving you well. But what I love, is that even today, you're saying, “I love my futuristic,” yes. Move in it, because you also see the future differently than he ever could, and we need to see it like you do.

Melissa: Yeah, that was beautiful. Thank you.

Tara: Yes. Speaking of futuristic, and one of the things we want to talk to you about today, is you do something really unique in the work that you do with firm owners. And really, if you are someone who's listening who is not a law firm owner, you can listen to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're a small business owner, you will take high value from it. It's really good.

There are a few times I listen where I'm like, “Oh, that's very specific to lawyers.” But most of what you do are principles and concepts and processes that help any business grow and thrive. What I've noticed about some of the things you do, Melissa, is that you provide what I would call a “framework for intentionality,” for businesses to grow. So, can you talk a little bit about what I mean by that, and how you came to be in this business?

Melissa: Yeah, I got certified as a life coach in 2008; it was the first certification I got. I got certified again, through a different organization about five years ago. I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. I was just very interested in it. I thought that I would apply it to my own life, the tools that I learned.

As time went on, I did put up a website. I set up a small business. It was a life coaching business. But the people that were coming to me, I was like, “Oh, no, this is not what I do.” The people that were finding me were like, ‘find your purpose’ kind of people.

And I was like, I wanted to help people get stuff done. I wanted to help people like get from A to B, and that is not who I was attracting. So, I ended up shutting that down and then moved to San Francisco. In San Francisco, I wanted to keep doing this, so at night I would go to the incubators and accelerators that existed for entrepreneurs there, and help them with productivity and thinking through.

These are people that they didn't have any money, yet. They were funded, but they were sleeping in the office. They were ragged, and building what they really believed in. And that was my favorite kind of person to work with. So, I would help them figure out how to make sure they're not leaving themselves as much in the dust, as they're trying to build this. Because if they want to finish, they're going to have to maintain some sense of integrity for themselves.

So, that was fun. I worked with people, doing that for a couple of years. I met some really great entrepreneurs, and just thought this would be so cool. Now, at the time, I wasn't in this work at all. So, in my former life I was a dental hygienist. Which seems like such a departure from what I do now. But a dental hygienist… and I knew from year one I was not supposed to be a dental hygienist. I did not know what else to do with my life.

But I milked that for all its worth. I became a total nerd, of not just about the science, but for my coaching, for my patients. Every practice I worked in, I had a higher compliance rate than anyone else. I would blow them out of the water because I cared so deeply about connecting with people, and getting them to floss. They had a lot of disease, and how to get back to health. I just thrived there.

That was the only thing that kept me in it as long as it did, before I really felt like my soul was hurting that I was still in that position. Finally, one day, I remember exactly where I was, I was running on the Embarcadero in San Francisco and I just stopped. I was listening to Wayne Dyer, if you know who Wayne Dyer is.

He said a sentence, I stopped running, I pushed pause, and I was like, “I'm done. I'm done. I don't know, I have zero idea what's coming next. But I'm done.” I went home, told my now husband; we lived in a 372 sq. ft. apartment. He was like, “You’re what? What are you going to do?” I was like, “I'll figure it out. I don't know. But I'll figure it out,” and got busy.

In two weeks, I had a job at a consulting firm for dental practices and doctors. So, I went there. That was certainly a huge link in my life chain. Because there I could take everything I had under my belt, and I was taught so much about business and running the business. I already had some insight there. But this was like on steroids.

I had to be certified, and be able to teach it, and it changed my whole life. So, that CEO I’m talking about… There are some pretty negative things that I have associated with that organization. But it was such a gift. It was the catapult into this life. The thing I loved the most, that came out of it, was how to facilitate strategic planning retreats for private practice owners.

I loved it. So, that's where I learned everything. I never, ever could have said, “I want to do that. This is how I'm going to get there.” It was fumbling around, kind of like I was saying earlier, to find my way.

Tara: I hope there's someone listening who wants to make a huge career leap. You were following passion, but also things you were naturally good at. You were following your strengths when you did that.

Melissa: It was like I finally just decided to believe in myself. Figure it out. You will figure it out. Stop being in this thing that you keep wanting out of, just stop. That took a ton of guts, but it was the best thing I ever did.

Tara: That's so cool. Henry Cloud actually calls that thing that you did, “unnecessary ending.” You had to make a hard stop. You didn't stop when you needed to pivot. It didn't take you out. You just kept searching and kept realizing. You call it “fumbling,” but I'm going to call it learning and pivoting; that constant place of students. So, what you needed to end you had the courage to do, and what you needed to continue to grow in you also had the courage to pivot.

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. I do agree with you about the learning versus fumbling. But truthfully, in the moment when you are learning, it feels like fumbling. It is so hard. I remember, I don't know if you know who Danielle Laporte is. But she said something one day that I clung to. Which was, “It won't be long now. It won't be long now.” I said that to myself out loud for years.

Because I just tried to play with that sentence. That it may take years, or I'm two years in and I'm trying to figure this out, but it won't be long now. In the grand scheme of things, just keep going. That really got me. It was something that I told myself a lot, that got me through those periods where you just can't see beyond one step.

And it's all necessary. I know we all have those journeys, in our own ways in life, and they're a part of it all, and it is beautiful in its own right. But for me, personally, I'm really glad that I'm through that one. It's really hard. So, I'm grateful for it, and grateful to be done with it.

Tara: What an incredible experience to bring into the consulting and coaching work you do now. Because how do you see that learning and that pivotal experience for you driving what you do with businesses now?

Melissa: It does play in, a lot now. In a nutshell, just for a point of reference for people, now, every single client we work with is centered around quarterly strategic planning. So, I don't work with someone unless they are entering into quarterly strategic planning.

We offer two paths to do that; a group version, and then private. Which is just us and the firm in a room for two days. There's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it. And based on the plans that come out of that, that we facilitate, then, in between the quarterly retreats and meetings or sessions, that's where there's accountability to actually honor the plan that they set for the next 90 days, and support and coaching.

We lift our head at the turn of the quarter, make some plans, and then go to work for the next 90 days. The people who choose to invest in that, versus the ones who don't, always fly further, faster. And that's what I love about it. It brings a sense of organization to what oftentimes, as a business owner, feels really messy.

You asked, how does it play in? I think I have a knack for, at least within this realm, making what seems very blurry, a little more defined and a little easier to swallow and accept, and making decisions about certain things and having clarity. That is what comes out of this.

And then, once they have clarity, now it's time to go. If they don't go, then the coaching comes in. Like, why aren't you showing up for these things? We have these plans. And it's probably not the perfect plan, there's no such thing, but you need to do it anyway. So, what's in the way? That's where the coaching comes in, if they experience that.

Tara: I was just going to ask, in addition to your vast experience… Because also, at this point, you have coached hundreds, moving forward, through growth. And so, there's so much I'm curious about. Owners and leaders, we get in our own way all the time. We get in our heads. You just mentioned one of them; the plan isn't perfect. What if this piece isn't…?

How do you help people overcome that? Because I think that is relatable to any business owner or leader listening. How do we know we've got the right plan?

Melissa: In my head, there are principles, and they're in an order. To me, what beats everything, if you're talking about progress, you want to make progress, what beats everything is that you have to execute. You have to do things in order to get results.

Now, I think starting a business, there's a bit of a hustle phase, and you're just executing all over the place, and trying things and seeing what works. That's very different. I don't usually work with people in that stage. I usually work people once they have a business, it does feel messy, and they know that to grow it, they're going to have to shift some things.

Or they don't know how to grow it to where they want and they're looking for a bit of structure in order to do that. So, we cannot work together, this is how I think about it, unless you have a plan that you've decided and agreed on that you are going to do, and to the best of your ability.

The plan is super intentional. I mean, this is like a full day or two days of coming up with these decisions. There's a framework that we move through to help them come to their own answers on what they're going to do. Once that's done, it's time to go.

It's okay that you have your own barriers, that's normal, but that's my job is to help move through those things so that we can actually do it. Whatever the voices are in your head, whatever the “reasons” that you aren't getting it done, it's usually, honestly, it's usually some form of, I'm just too busy. I don't have time. I wanted to do these things but I'm having a hard time finding the space to do these things. That's just logistics, we can work that out.

Whatever needs to be worked out, so that you honor the plan, is the most important thing. Not because this plan is the perfect plan. We have quotes about plans, right? “Make a plan and work your plan,” is one of them. Or “Plan your work and work your plan,” I think is one of them.

But then there's another one that talks about, I think, a former president, like Roosevelt or something, it actually says, “Your plans won't be the right plan. But you have to have them in order to make progress. You have to execute on them.” And that's the way I feel about this.

Because if you just make some decisions, and then you actually get that stuff done, to the best of your ability, you give yourself a whole new vantage. And so then, even if it wasn't the perfect thing, you are in a different spot. Now, you're more informed, you have more experience, more knowledge, more insight, to make a little bit better plan.

You're asking, how do I help them? It's, “Listen, you got to go.” I'm willing to work through with them their own stuff, and everybody's is a little bit different, but we have to come back to the understanding that this wins. This trumps; you have to do this thing. And so, that's what I keep coming back to.

Tara: I have always said, the best strategy is the one you'll actually do. So, if you're not willing to do it, it's probably not a good strategy for you. And so often, I think the missing piece for business owners is exactly what you had said before, as you decided to believe in yourself. But you're also providing a path, right?

So, the structure that you're providing, the cadence of accountability, is a path people can follow. They will make progress. Because it's consistent action; having a plan, working that plan, like you said. There will be progress made, but I see so many people, leaders, it doesn't matter if you are an individual contributor, or leader, or a business owner, where we don't make progress, because we don't just commit to doing the thing, doing the work. You’ve just got to do the work.

I heard this the other day with Pamela, the podcast we were listening to, the know versus do gap. Knowing something feels like work sometimes, but it's the doing that actually makes progress. But we convince ourselves, because we thought deeply… We have just exhausted ourselves because we thought so much about something, worried so much about something, but we haven't actually done the work.

Melissa: Yeah, there's a concept that I like a lot, and I think about a lot of, passive action versus massive action; I think is the way someone described it. It was passive learning versus active learning. Passive learning is intellectually understanding something and gaining knowledge. The active learning is the application of that.

People get stuck in passive learning quite a bit; it's comfy, it feels noble, it feels like I'm learning all these things. But unless you actually apply it… which takes guts, oftentimes. It's not going to go well the first time, in many cases. And so, you just have to get in the ring, as Brené Brown says. Also, Roosevelt.

Both are needed, but people stay stuck in one. If I would have found or had a partner that said, “Okay, I don't know, your best path but we are going to get in a room, and we're going to figure out what the best plan for you moving forward is. And you're going to do that for 90 days.”

Then, along the way, having someone in your ear, that's saying, “That’s a no. Go. Come on, let's go.” Or helping them unwind so that they can go. Just a partner; how invaluable that would have been? I made it out, so there's that. But what would have been really great to know.

Tara: What's really interesting to me, Melissa, is my strengths are in the relational realm, but strategic is the first for me. What I appreciate is that with a plan, I actually get to honor the person in a more whole way. Because I go back to the paper.

Because oftentimes, the place that a person is at, or their own insecurities or whatever it is, that they may not implement the plan... We're talking about implementation today, and intentionality. And so, they may get off the track. But I don't have to shame them. I get to go back to the paper. Which I think you need to; everybody's agreed to this. You're reminding them of that. It really starts with the small habits.

And so, I'm going to go all the way back to the beginning of our podcast, where you said that I was the highest producer, I think you said, in the dental office because you got people to floss. That was that a very small action. James Clear talks about it in Atomic Habits. Groeschel talks about it in his Leadership Podcast.

I have now become a flosser, and because I floss, I can now do all of these other things. You got them to do that one little step. Now, it feels like they're king of the world, when they've completed the action plan.

So today, as we are finishing up this podcast on intentionality and implementing, what are one or two things that you want to encourage our listeners, in general, to follow up on that plan? And then walking it out in that active learning, as you talked about, to be able to continue implementing and encourage others to follow through on the plan?

Melissa: The thing that stands out is, when I help people make these big plans, it’s going to take work. We don't ever wrap that up without a conversation about what needs to happen, for them as a person, in order to set them up for success with this.

It's the wee things; we call them the wee things. It's like, what are the very small things that you need to do so that you can actually show up for these plans? For some people, that is just teeing up their morning so it's smoother. I have had people say, “I put my kid’s shoes and socks by the front door and I set the coffee pot for the morning. And because my morning is smoother, I can actually have a better flow through my days.

So, sometimes it's those kinds of things. And other times it is something around health and taking care of themselves. But what are the wee things? Sometimes just going to bed earlier.

You just brought back the flossing thing. I would have hygienist and doctors scoff at my prescriptions, so to speak, for patients. Because I would say, “You don’t have to floss every day. You need to floss on… Pick two days of the week you're going to floss.” They would pick two days. Everybody else, if you don't floss every day, then they just had an attitude about it.

I'm like, “Okay, let's see whose gums are healthier, y'all, when patients come back.” And so, they would come back and their gums would be healthier. They wouldn't bleed as much when I would do the cleaning. And it was two days; two days a week.

You had to teach them how to do it right, and they needed to use the right kind of floss, but that was it. And so, it's the same in any other stuff that we're working on. People who want to be healthier and they think that they have to do it five to six days a week? No, pick two, as an example.

Just small changes that are consistently happening, will change your entire trajectory. I think sometimes we just take these big swings; we're used to doing that. You have to have those kinds of plans, but to support those kinds of plans, underneath it all, are just wee things. So, we focus a lot on that.

I would just ask people to think about what stands out for them. What category of life for them, that they know, is a drag. Like, it's actually impeding on their progress. Okay, just pick something very small in that category, and that, over time, will produce a different result for you.

Tara: We always talk about we don't want to do work that doesn't matter. And so, we're constantly talking about, what you talked about before, the actionable learning. If you can't listen to one of our podcasts and put something into action, we feel like we've wasted your time. So, why not provide those action steps?

First of all, hopefully everyone listening is going to start flossing twice a week, because that's such an easy action step we can all take. You’re right, because that is what gets intimidating. “I know I'm going to fail. I know I'm going to miss it. I know it. That's too high of an expectation. I can't go from zero to perfect,” right? And so, you made it manageable.

I think that's what you do so brilliantly, Melissa, is break down this planning process and make things more manageable for people. Hopefully, you've picked up more than one thing that you can put into action, and have been inspired by Melissa’s story. So, thank you so much.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map/ Friday Wrap. If you go to velocitywork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans. So, that week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to VelocityWork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to velocitywork.com where you can plug in to Quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.

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