Your Mental Health, Curiosity, Self-Compassion, and Parts Work with Jenny Jacobsen

I’m Melissa Shanahan, and this is The Law Firm Owner Podcast Episode #289.

Welcome to The Law Firm Owner Podcast, powered by Velocity Work, for owners who want to grow a firm that gives them the life they want. Get crystal clear on where you're going, take planning seriously, and honor your plan like a pro. This is the work that creates Velocity.

Melissa Shanahan: Welcome to this week's show, everyone. I am just over the moon to have a guest with me. It's very special guests. You will hear why in just a moment, but Jenny Jacobson, thank you so much for being on this podcast.

Jenny Jacobsen: I am so glad to be here.

Melissa Shanahan: I wasn't sure if you would be open to be on the podcast, but everybody listening, Jenny is my therapist and has been my therapist for years. She is a diamond in the rough. I feel really grateful to have found you a few years ago, and you've been a huge part of just focusing on my mental health. And will you please just share a little bit about who you are and what you do more specifically? Okay, go for it.

Jenny Jacobsen: Sure. Yeah. So I'm a therapist in Denver. I'm in private practice now. And I'm primarily an EMDR therapist.

I'm a certified EMDR therapist, but I also like to incorporate a lot of parts work. I do a lot of IFS or internal family systems if people are familiar with that model and like to incorporate a lot of other models as well. And I see mainly adults, but some teens out of my office and yeah, it's great.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. I really believe this. You are extremely skilled, talented, gifted, because, you know, I've, I've talked to therapists before, counselors before, I've had a lot of coaches before. And it is not often that I've been in deep conversation with someone where, you know, you ask really good questions that I have to think about in order to answer. And I have to go inward to get those answers.

And sometimes I get so vertical on something and answering you that I almost get lost in my own thoughts. And you never do. You never get lost in like the depth or the vertical of it. And so even if I start to lose my train of thought, you're like, no, no, no, no, this is where we are. This is what we're, this is kind of what we're getting at.

It is so refreshing because it's hard work to do that level of introspection. And so when you really feel like someone's got you, makes it a lot easier to do that, that kind of work. So I just appreciate you so much. And I'm so grateful that you were willing to come here to chat with us today.

Jenny Jacobsen: Oh, you're so kind. Well, please know the feelings mutual And I enjoy our work together so much. And I think that you really practice what you preach in terms of doing the work yourself. And I think you initially, if it's okay that I say, initially came to therapy because you said I'm showing up in a way in the world that doesn't feel good to me. Yeah, I would like to do that.

Melissa Shanahan: That is exactly right. And yeah, that blew open a whole can of... As it does. As it does. Yeah. Maybe that's for another episode. But I will say that I think a lot of listeners, well, a lot of people I get to work with, so I guess I don't know about the full listenership, but I would imagine that the sample of people I get to work with is representative of the listenership. And I think that generally law firm owners have a tendency to be really hard on themselves. They have a tendency to push really hard. They have a ceiling that is above what most people can, like they've pushed it, you know, they work really hard, even though yes, they try to work smart, but they can just keep going.

It's like Energizer Bunny, although it's not right. That's kind of why I'm having you on the podcast. So I know from experience, I know from talking to law firm owners that there is a really hard darker side to that and operating that way where there are times that do feel dark and they do feel lonely and your mental health takes a beating when you get in those spaces.

So that's one reason I guess I'm trying to explain to the audience why I decided to have you on or ask you to come on. The second thing that stands out to me or that has stood out to me is this concept that you and I have talked about before, that the opposite of depression isn't actually happiness, it's curiosity. And that concept, really, I continue to think about it a lot. And for some reason, that felt really freeing when I learned about it, that my goal is not to be happy all the time. The opposite end of the spectrum is actually curiosity.

So I wanted to have you on today to talk about, I mean, you actually work with law firm owners, you do have clients with law firm owners. And so I would love to just hear any of your commentary on any anything that I just shared that you'd like to add or to say, and then maybe discuss a little bit about when we get in these states, what are ways that we can develop ourselves open up to maybe a different way of dealing with these states than just driving harder, or isolating ourselves, or there's like probably a bunch of unhealthy behaviors that tend to happen.

So I don't know, I kind of just want to let you go for a bit. Okay. Okay.

Jenny Jacobsen: Well, you're right. I do actually work with several law firm owners and just high achieving individuals. And I tend to tell my clients that often our greatest strength can also be our greatest weakness.

And I think for those high achieving individuals, they got there for a reason. And there's a lot of strengths that come with those personality traits of being driven and hardworking and having that really high ceiling.

But I think sometimes there can come a point like you're naming where there's a tipping point and it gets dark. And they're maybe missing some of their own red flags that they're more isolated, you know, disconnected from themselves, disconnected from loved ones in their life, not feeling their best, kind of that tunnel vision.

I think especially with if that tends more towards kind of some nervous system dysregulation, that can look like feeling more keyed up, on edge, more irritable, feeling really rushed all the time. And it can cause people to not be the best versions of themselves.

Melissa Shanahan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, which is so ironic because, you know, you're working so hard to build this thing that a lot of people don't do. They don't choose to go down that path. They don't choose to build a business. And it's challenging, and it is meaningful to them to succeed at this.

And they do, oftentimes, except it's at the cost of them, almost, or they let themselves in the dust. Yes. One thing I noticed is and I'm just wondering if listeners are saying you know, that can be really dark. There's a tipping point. I think a lot of the people that I've had conversations with are not a lot I don't know what enough, enough conversations with will ride that line where there's phases of it's a little darker and then they sort of like start to have a different experience at some point.

And it's almost like they dip in and out. And so I'm just wondering, for listeners are thinking, well, I'm not at my tipping point yet. But are you riding the line? You know, like, yeah, you're functional. But that doesn't mean that it's that maybe there's not some I don't know when to use the word depression and when not to like I don't know if that means that you're sort of always dipping in and out of depressive episodes or states, or if it's just like you mentioned recently, I heard you say instead of the word depression, you use not feeling like themselves.

Because what you said…

Jenny Jacobsen: Yes.

Melissa Shanahan: So I don't know if you have anything to say about that or maybe it doesn't feel like they're just like they fall into a pool of depression. Although for some people I am sure that that's a reality for certain people. I have been in those spots before I know what that's like. But generally speaking, I have a hunch people sort of dip back and forth over this line. Right.

Jenny Jacobsen: And I think my question for those people would be, okay, maybe you're not completely falling in or tipping over, but are you ever coming to a point where you feel good, you know? And what are the voices inside of your head looking like? You know, how's your relationship with yourself?

Because oftentimes really driven individuals are really hard on themselves and can have a really harsh inner voice that tells them often they're not good enough, they're not trying hard enough, anything but perfection is failure, and that's a really hard standard. I find oftentimes when people tip over the edge and it starts to impact their external world, you know, their partnerships or their children or their employees, oftentimes internally they've been struggling much longer.

Melissa Shanahan: Also too, speaking from personal experience, I have a close family member that deals with depression on a pretty severe level and has for many, many, many years. So observing that as well, what's crazy about this and sort of a bummer is that if you start to get into a space that feels darker, where you maybe are more apathetic or really down and like, can't pick yourself up, so to speak.

It is harder to do the things that you understand intellectually and that it would help, but it's really difficult to get yourself to do them. There's almost like a it's not a laziness. That's absolutely the wrong word, but I realized this crew will identify with that word because it seems it feels lazy to not do what you should do.

It's such a disadvantage by the time you get to that state that I think it would be really cool to talk about what do you do when you start to get buried by your own thoughts, the way you beat yourself up, whatever your perspective is, when you get down, how do you help yourself in those times? And maybe the conversation, how do you prevent those? Like what do you, what signals and signs do you look for? But if you're there, how can you start to shift out of it?

Jenny Jacobsen: Sure. Well, I think you started this conversation talking about curiosity. And I think that that is a great starting point. Especially if you're someone who's always in high gear, you probably don't slow down a lot to introspect and check in with yourself and even ask yourself, how am I doing? How am I feeling? What do I notice about myself right now?

And so even just starting there, because when we get down, we tend to, like you were saying, get stuck in these negative cycles where our whole view of ourselves, of others, of the world gets distorted. And it can be for the negative. And so the importance of curiosity is to help us start to approach ourselves and our feelings and our experiences in more of a non-judgmental way, where I think first just pausing, just creating the space to check in with yourself, whether that's a therapist, whether that's going for a run, whether that's journaling for 10 minutes, just driving in the car, but pause and look inward and ask yourself, how am I feeling? And why might I be feeling this way? Right.

Melissa Shanahan: People do not do that.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right. It feels so simple and yet it can be really hard to do. It can be really hard to create the space to do it.

Melissa Shanahan: Well, I think, I mean, there's been times where you ask me a question, it's that simple. You'll ask me a question like that, or because of the work with you, I've been in certain situations where I will remember to ask myself that. And that question can bring me to tears because I do not consider that question. It's not a consideration. Normally, the way that I'm running and the like my tendencies.

Jenny Jacobsen: Mm-hmm.

Melissa Shanahan: I don't allow space to ask how I'm feeling.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right. Right.

Melissa Shanahan: It's like all bubbling over to the surface.

Jenny Jacobsen: Yeah. Right. It can feel a little soft sometimes to say well how am I feeling when there's deadlines and things to get done? But you're right, if we don't stop to check in, the feelings start to control us. They come out one way or the other.

Melissa Shanahan: Mm-hm. Definitely. The other thing I feel like is important to note, thinking about our listeners, you know, when I first brought up with you the quote that I heard about the opposite of depression being curiosity instead of happiness, in my head, I think that there was something intriguing about that, but felt out of reach for me because I would love to be more curious. I would love to have that trait be more of a part of me. But what I was thinking curiosity is like, how do butterflies get their colors?

Jenny Jacobsen: Like that kind of childlike curiosity. Right.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. And that is very difficult to do for someone that drives hard. So it almost like-

Jenny Jacobsen: I don't have time to think about butterflies.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, exactly. I don't have time to be curious about the world. I've got things to do. Even though like, there was a part of me that hoped, well, maybe there is that thing that I can be curious about that doesn't feel like a waste of time.

But something you mentioned is that your curiosity has to start internally first. So if you could say more about how you think of curiosity in this, as it pertains to what we're talking about, maybe that would help people as well be able to feel like they could actually exhibit curiosity.

Jenny Jacobsen: Sure. I mean, yeah, you're right. I think that curiosity starts with ourselves, that we have to be curious about why we are showing up in the world as the way that we are. Like I said, those questions of just even how am I feeling, why am I feeling this way? But then going with that, you know, are there any stories that I'm telling myself right now that aren't 100% true or I'm not sure that they're 100% true?

Are there any events from my past that are contributing to the way that I'm feeling right now. You know, I use parts language with my clients a lot because I think that that can really help us approach ourselves with curiosity. If we can think of things about ourselves as just a part of us, it's not all of us, then we can recognize, well, maybe a part of me is feeling anxious or a part of me is feeling burnt out. And that can give us a little bit more insight into well, what is this part really needing?

Melissa Shanahan: I will say, I think that is one of the most profound pieces for me working with you. I did not have any idea about parts in internal family systems, which is I think where that comes from.

Jenny Jacobsen: Yes.

Melissa Shanahan: Can you maybe give a brief explanation of internal family systems and who the father of it is?

Jenny Jacobsen: Yeah, Dr. Richard Schwartz created Internal Family Systems or IFS And it's basically just this idea that we're all made up of parts. And while that may sound foreign, we've all been using that language, right? Part of me wants to stay home and part of me wants to go out. Part of me wants to work really hard and part of me wants to rest.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. Like learning that there is a part of me that is a protector. And there's a part of me that wants to lay on the couch and not do anything like you have created or allowed a curiosity in me about the parts of me that I can see now actually just as we're talking. I didn't have this language before this conversation, but I can see now in the way that we're talking about this right now, that the reason in the last few years that I have not dealt with depression in the same way that I have previously in life, I think a huge part of that is the curiosity about the different parts of me and what makes me tick and you know, that's something you've helped foster. I'm not sitting down trying to get curious about it except for the fact that I go sit on your couch. I'm trying to get curious about it.

Jenny Jacobsen: Oh, but that counts.

Melissa Shanahan: It does count.

Jenny Jacobsen: And something you say is if there are extremes. And this is not my language. This is Dick Schwartz's language. But he says anything that is extreme is most likely a part. So if you feel like you're really feeling strongly about something, you hate something, or you're really having a reaction to, say, an employee or a member of your family, oftentimes that's a part of you that has been hurt in some way or, you know, needs to be heard or needs validation and needs to be oftentimes, I think you and I talk about our parts being like little kids that are tapping us on the shoulder, right?

And what happens when we ignore a child, they get louder and louder and louder and tap us on the shoulder harder. And oftentimes that's what our parts do is they get louder and louder until we turn towards them and pay attention to them.

Melissa Shanahan: And also something else that I learned, and I don't know if this is true for everybody or if it just depends on certain circumstances when you were young, but I had parts that were developed when I was young. And never went unchecked from then on. So like they had tactics to, for instance, protect me when I was younger. But those tactics that continued to rule the roost as I became an adult, they don't serve you in the same ways when you're an adult. So yeah.

Jenny Jacobsen: Yeah. So in IFS, they talk about how we all have a self, they call it capital S self, which is our true essence. It's our most grounded, compassionate, calm self.

Melissa Shanahan: So this is what some people might say is like your soul or your essence or your spirit or your I don't know, people will have different Martha Beck called the essential self.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right?

Melissa Shanahan: Yes.

Jenny Jacobsen: Okay. Yes. All of those different words are what Dick Schwartz means when he talks about the self. And then we have parts. And most of us have some younger parts that can carry he calls them burdens or wounds, things that have happened to us in our life.

And then often we have managers or protective parts that decide, well I never want to feel like that again. And so I am going to show up in ways like I'm going, you know, to never make a mistake. I'm going to work super hard. Yes, I'm going to have control at all times. I'm not going to feel my feelings.

My feelings aren't safe, especially negative feelings, right? Or that certain levels of connection feel scary. Whatever those things are. And oftentimes those protective parts are really what I say driving the bus. And we don't even realize that.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so I guess this coming back to like, when you feel really dark, it is to me, this is my experience of it. So I'm curious for because you deal with so many different flavors of this. I don't know if this is true, generally speaking.

But what I learned is when certain parts of me were driving the bus, I was always walking the line with like, experiencing some level of not feeling like myself, I get, well, I don't know, I was pretty, that's pretty much how I felt for a lot of my life. So I felt like myself, but not, and I don't even know that dark is the word, but definitely like leaning that direction where isolating myself, exhaustion, burnout, like not joy. I wouldn't describe my life full of joy. And so I hope that listeners might be able to connect some dots that, you know, maybe there is a part or parts that are dominating in such ways that it's really hard to give yourself a shot unless you deliberately take some space. Like, you're always gonna be riding that line if it's driving the bus.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right. And I think that's where, again, that curiosity piece can come in if you were able to step back and start to look at some of those patterns and recognize oh there's a part of me that's really afraid of failure and feels like I can't take my foot off the gas at all or I'll fail. And does all of me feel that way? Oftentimes those parts get a bad rap, but that part's just trying to protect you. You know, it's really trying to avoid any negative feelings, any feelings of projection or failure, because at some point in your life, those feelings or even just the fear of those feelings was terrifying.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. And lawyers. Oh my gosh, I feel like they were just bred for those things to be even more magnified. At law school, I hear stories from clients about how there's, you know, moments of humiliation, if you didn't get it right or have it down or completely in law school and, and the demand just in general, It feels like it takes people who maybe were bent that way anyway, and just turns them into machines. But I think a lot of a lot of people in this, in our sphere, I think would have an awareness that that's probably true, but still really struggle against it. They recognize it and I think in some ways they feel stuck in that way of operating. So yeah.

Jenny Jacobsen: Sure. And I think that's where, you know, the purpose of the curiosity is really to try to lead us to both compassion and connection. And that's also the work of Brené Brown. So if you want to learn more about that, she's done really beautiful work on curiosity and compassion and connection.

But when we're more curious about ourselves, that helps us even create some space between ourselves and the feeling. It's not all of who we are, right? And then we're able to try to offer some of that compassion to ourselves. This has been a hard year or I am operating in these ways that come from childhood or law school and you know maybe I need to be kinder to myself.

Melissa Shanahan: That really strikes me. I feel like a lot of people have you know they have teams of people that work for them. And a lot of people we work with can be really tough to work for. And not that they shouldn't have high standards, but they're just trying to figure out how to lead a team of people. If the owner isn't kind to themselves, like you were just saying, like maybe I should be kinder to myself. It's probably very difficult to extend that to others. Not that you're not kind, but.

Jenny Jacobsen: But that compassion, it starts with ourselves. When we can offer grace to ourselves, when we can accept our own humanity, that we're going to make mistakes, that we're going to feel down sometimes, or that we're going to show up in the world in ways that we wish we didn't, right, because that's what it means to be human. We're going to suffer because we're human. Then we can extend that compassion to the people around us. You know, we can think, well, instead of just noticing someone's poor performance, we can have curiosity about them.

I wonder what's going on for them. I wonder what they might be needing right now. I wonder how I can extend some compassion to them and some curiosity.

Melissa Shanahan: That sounds so easy, but it's really tough.

Jenny Jacobsen: It's really tough. It's really tough. Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: I think when something goes wrong, right? Like something went wrong with the client communication or a deadline or something like that. The tenseness, it's unconscious. Like there is a reaction to that, that it should have been this way. Why wasn't it this way?

It's not a good feeling inside. It feels super tight and tightly wound. And a lot of people live in that state because of all the things flying at them and the demands. So what would you say to someone who they feel tight most days, when no one's looking, they feel sad, down, wish things were different. What would you say to someone who finds themselves in that spot either consistently or not.

But when they're in that spot, I think you mentioned a couple of questions that they can use to get curious about what's really going on. I don't know if you have any tricks or tips for how do people remember in those moments to turn to those questions? That's probably a really hard question to answer like that's to practice that. But I'm wondering in those moments if you can imagine someone going through that or one of your clients How do they start to soften in a way that allows for those questions? Yeah, I guess that's the end of the sentence.

Jenny Jacobsen: Yeah. I love the word soften. I encourage people to soften all the time, to try to soften towards themselves, soften towards the people around them. I think even in the softening, there creates a moment for us to shift how we're responding. I think sometimes I think this does take practice.

You know, maybe it's something you need a note in your phone, that it's even something that you do every day. But even just asking yourself what's the most compassionate thing I can do for myself right now? See, even as I ask you that I can feel a softening.

Melissa Shanahan: That's a good question. I'm not trying to say yeah, but. That is not what I'm saying. Because that stuff works. I think people are afraid to do that because it's almost like if they soften, then they're going to lose their edge or like a softening actually doesn't lead to results that they need to get. I wonder what you would say to someone who feels like, that sounds great and I gotta go.

I hope that people listening know that that cannot be true, that there has to be room for this, but I think that's our default sometimes is.

Jenny Jacobsen: Totally. And I think often that is a fear of our protective parts, that if we don't operate at such a high level, if we're not harsh on ourselves, harsh on those around us, if we don't tow a completely straight line, then how's anything ever gonna get done?

Melissa Shanahan: Right, Yes. Okay, I remember that from a specific session. You're like, I'm like, yes, exactly. Right.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right. So going back to that being a part, it's a part of us that's afraid. Mm-hmm.

Melissa Shanahan: Mm-hmm. It doesn't mean that it's true.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right.

Melissa Shanahan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I remember the one part and specifically realizing like you kept asking me questions to understand what this part of me was trying to protect from. And what we got to was getting off track. Like I had this visual in my head of a train on tracks.

And if things don't go a certain way or it was ridiculous, the expectation I had. And if that wasn't held, that would mean that the train came off the tracks, which is not just to like slip. That is sort of an aggressive, violent experience. And it was protecting against like, do not get off track, stay on track. And I couldn't believe it.

Like when you started asking me questions, and those were my honest answers, when I reflected, it was like, that's just almost crazy talk. That is not how this is gonna go. The world does not stop because of this one thing that in your mind interprets like throwing it off the tracks and I think everybody probably has a different metaphor visualization in their mind, but that was one for me and it really helped me realize in talking to you that sometimes just asking questions and getting curious helps it have less weight.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right. Are things really going to fall apart if we set boundaries, right? Or if we take some rest over the holidays, or if we're kind to ourselves. Because oftentimes, right, we have a fear that that means we're soft, but actually, it helps us feel more connected to ourselves, helps us feel more connected to the people around us. It creates a more emotionally safe workplace. You're more approachable.

Melissa Shanahan: I mean, oftentimes, I mean, looking at the work side of it, you're more focused. You're not darting all over the place. You're not trying to keep it all together. It's that softening actually allows for more, you sort of constrain down to the things that matter the most.

Jenny Jacobsen: Sometimes these protective driven parts, they have these fears that if we take our foot off the gas, even 5%, right, everything's going to fall apart. And so sometimes we, and this is more work in therapy, but we have to listen to those parts, listen to their fears, and then check out, well is that really true that everything is gonna fall apart? And a question I ask in therapy sometimes is, what does that part need to feel a little bit safer about you taking a break?

Melissa Shanahan: You'll ask questions about to try to get underneath when did that develop? When did that start to take shape in your internal world. And amazingly, you can usually, there's an answer that surfaces that's pretty intuitive. You don't have to like think very hard.

Jenny Jacobsen: We all have a story.

Melissa Shanahan: We all have a story, is that what you said?

Jenny Jacobsen: Yes.

Melissa Shanahan: So you work with patients or clients, what do you call them patients or clients?

Jenny Jacobsen: In private practice, we call them clients.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay. Okay. So you work with clients in Colorado. Yes. The state of Colorado. So we'll definitely leave your information for people to be able to get a hold of you if they'd like to.

But I was just thinking if people want to explore this further, because I really do attribute as someone who has worked hard on my mental health, a lot of my adult life. I mean, there's no question to me, if I did not go to a session with you, which sometimes is virtual, but I prefer in person. If I didn't go to a session with you and sit my butt down on your couch. And sometimes I don't not even sure what we're going to talk about. Sometimes we know exactly what we're going to pick up.

But I think it's almost like I've hired out the curiosity. Like, you help me be curious. In those moments, you ask the questions that make me think and make me dig. And it does interest me. I don't feel like I could do as well with curiosity if I didn't have you.

So I was thinking if, you know, if this interests them at all, if they just have a feeling like there's something here for me, like, I would like to look into this more. What would you recommend in terms of, you know, internal family systems if a therapist is trained in that?

Jenny Jacobsen: Yeah, I mean, of course, I'm partial to therapy and encouraging people to go to therapy. So I would recommend, you know, find a therapist that is trained in IFS, or at least does some parts work. And I find EMDR really effective too. I like the combination.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. We didn't even talk about that.

Jenny Jacobsen: Yeah. Well, a lot of times, a lot of times it goes together and it's about kind of rewiring old patterns that aren't working anymore. And oftentimes that can be part of that younger part of you that was hurt at one point and being able to rewire some of those beliefs or experiences. But you know, in terms of self-work, I really like the work of Kristen Neff. She wrote a book called Self Compassion, and she's got a lot of meditations online, and she's interviewed a lot.

If you're a podcast person, you know, I already said, Brené Brown, but Brené has a lot of great work on leadership as well. And she talks a lot about the benefits of curiosity and compassion for the leader, you know, how it doesn't just benefit you, but it benefits whatever team you're leading as well.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, I'm glad you came on. You know, this episode was the impetus for this. I said at the beginning why I wanted to do it, but the thing that made this rise to the surface was evaluating, I guess I was curious. I didn't think of it like that until just now, but I was in the car, and I was completely overwhelmed, like jacked up, but just lots to do. I was driving to a meeting and I had the thought, you know, you hear sometimes that when you're feeling down, that one of the best things you can do is to go help someone else. And it can kind of pull you out of that funk. And I felt like I was in a funk, but I really was like, that is not what I need right now. I was kind of feeling buried. So I did feel a little like, low energy, but got to keep going got to keep going.

I thought that's not what I need to do. I don't need to go help someone else right now. I'm down to do that sometimes, but that's not what I need. And so I started thinking about like, what are the things that you're supposed to do with different feeling states that you are experiencing? So, you know, if you're feeling depressed or low, like how can you get curious? And I do think there was like, it wasn't a high point for me. It wasn't dark and laying on the couch, but it wasn't a high point for me. And I realized that what I needed was to protect my time more and just protect yourself so that you have space and energy.

So then I started thinking about different reasons, or different protocols, so to speak, for different states that you might be feeling. And I wanted to explore this further. But I wanted to do that with an expert. And you just felt like the obvious person to ask to come on because I know that so many people just are trying to navigate the emotional internal side of owning a business and the weight that that carries having a team, having priorities in the personal life, and maybe just all of it feels like it's too much or something is not getting attention. And so I just really appreciate you coming on to just have a conversation.

You know, I think in this space, it should be more of a conversation, but people are afraid a bit to talk about these things because most people that have any sort of platform in the law firm owner space, they're not a therapist. So you tend to just not poke that bear. So, yeah.

Jenny Jacobsen: Right. You know, you'll never regret taking care of yourself. And even in what you just said, the questions you went through while driving in your car, you know, that's all it takes, right? You're driving in your car and you notice that you're feeling off. It is like a muscle. The more you use it, the better you get at it.

You just very naturally went down those questions and thought to yourself, What am I feeling? Why am I feeling that way? And what am I needing? And I heard a really compassionate response that arose. I need to protect myself more. Not I need to try harder. I need to do more. I need to be better.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah, no, you're right. Okay. It wasn't that flavor of answer at all. Not at all. I do have flashes of moments, which I attribute to the work I've done with you that I actually feel proud of all the things that I'm handling.

And I hope that listeners do too, because we're all handling a lot, not just law firm owners, but that's my audience, but we're all handling a lot. And we're doing the best we can. And the more curious you get; I really think the better you can do.

Jenny Jacobsen: That gratitude for yourself.

Melissa Shanahan: Yes.

Jenny Jacobsen: And the ways that you're showing up for yourself and everything that you're carrying. It's a lot.

Melissa Shanahan: Yeah. I hope that this just sparks a conversation or sparks someone who finds themself at some point or finds a point that was made on this episode, do something with that. If that just means more self-reflection and more curiosity about what's going on for you, or if that means reaching out to go sit your butt on someone's couch so that you can have help doing that and unwind some things. That's really my only hope. I think mental health is a big deal.

It's not something that's talked about very often. And I think this audience is one of the professions that in many ways, the cards are stacked against you, especially if you don't have this, the opportunity or the awareness to be able to be curious about your own state and what you need and why you're feeling that way. Will you come back?

Jenny Jacobsen: Of course. Okay. Anytime I'd be happy to.

Melissa Shanahan: Okay, cool. Thank you for your time today. And I guess listeners, if you have anything specific that you would love, obviously I would keep anonymous any questions I would just ask general questions to Jenny. But if there's anything that you would love a concept that you would like us to go deeper on or a question that you have that wasn't asked at all here today, maybe I can ask.

I'll ask Jenny and she'll come back to address those. So you can email Melissa@velocitywork.com. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this.

Jenny Jacobsen: Thank you for having me. This was great. Yeah.

Melissa Shanahan: All right. Talk to you soon. Okay. Talk to you soon. See you on your couch.

Jenny Jacobsen: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map/Friday Wrap. If you go to VelocityWork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans. So, that week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to VelocityWork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to VelocityWork.com where you can plug in to quarterly strategic planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.