I’m Melissa Shanahan, and this is The Law Firm Owner Podcast, Episode #193.

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Everyone, welcome to this week's episode. This week, I have a guest who is returning for the second time. I introduced you to this guest, Tara Gronhovd, in January; a little over a month ago from when this is airing. So, I would go back and check out that first episode. It'll give you context. This one stands on its own, for sure. But it's a great place to start, I think, the one with her in January. This is her second time back. I would like to have her back consistently.

She is an expert with team dynamics and leadership coaching, and all the things that we have to think about as owners with teams. A team is so, so, so important to us running things, whether you have very few team members or whether you have a large team. These are concepts that you want to keep top of mind and have stay alive, so that you produce the kind of culture and the kind of team that makes sense for everyone involved; clients, the business, you, the team, all of it.

And surprisingly, that is hard. So, we are going to have her on consistently to offer her expertise to you. If you are interested in learning more about her, you will find a way to do that in the show notes and I highly recommend it. She is fantastic. I think soaking up her knowledge is such a gift. So, without further ado, here is today's conversation with Tara Gronhovd.

Welcome to this week's episode. I'm pumped, because this is episode two with Tara Gronhovd. Thank you for joining us again.

Tara Gronhovd: Thank you so much for having me again. I'm thrilled to be here.

Melissa: Oh, listen, you're going to be back often, assuming you're willing. Because there are so many things that run through my head that I know I'm not alone. But I'm not the expert. So, I don't talk to my clients about a lot of the things that you and I are going to be talking about on this podcast. But this is the world you live in.

Tara: Yeah, this is the world I talk about all day.

Melissa: For all of you listening, if you haven't listened to the first episode we did with Tara, go back and listen to it. We'll put the link in the show notes. It was just a few weeks ago. I wanted to pick up on something that we touched on there. And maybe time for two things, if we have time for two things today.

But towards the end of the episode, I was mentioning, when should you keep putting resources and time and effort into the relationship with the team member or employee, as the owner? Or, when do you just call it off and let the person go? I know you have thoughts and opinions about this. There's so many different angles or paths we could go on with this conversation, but I would love to just hear you start riffing. And I can ask questions along the way.

Tara: Absolutely. I think it's a really common struggle for business owners of any kind. Of how long do we invest in this? I, in general, just have a philosophy of hire slow and fire fast, but with some parameters. Like, you can't hire slow and fire fast if you aren't also really clear about what you expect. And so, there's some frameworks that you have to have in place in order to make that actually work for you. Otherwise, you can end up just messing up your recruiting and retainment strategy. Right?

Melissa: What are the parameters?

Tara: One of them is, are you really clear about what you expect? And are you really clear about what it means to be a good fit in your organization? If you're not really clear, I think it's challenging to say, “This person isn't a fit,” and then fire fast if you haven't really examined what that means. And you haven't really been clear, with any employee, much less the new employee, about what you're expecting and how you're expecting them to show up.

Melissa: Something you've been helping me with is we have core values and worked on those with the team. But through conversations, the initial conversations with you in our private sessions, you said, “I have a hunch there's some unwritten values inside of your core values.” We've been going through, and you're asking me, what do you really mean when you say this in your core value?

It gives me a chance to talk, and you can pull out some of the things that aren't written, but it's supposed to mean. And that's been really helpful. Because when you say, “What are you clear about what you expect?” Of course, there's job performance things that each team member needs to be up on. But really, there's expectations I have globally, that I thought I was doing a good job of explaining and conveying, but I'm not.

This has been really helpful for me being clear. I thought I was clear. You've been really working to make sure that I'm clear. So, I was going to ask, is that what you mean? It's just digging in to figure out what's unwritten? that you did as part of what I

Tara: That is part of what I mean. I mean, engagement in general, engagement in… What I mean by engagement is someone shows up motivated to do their work, and excited to be a part of your organization. Right? So, engagement increases with role clarity.

In terms of technical or performance-based expectations, I think it's fair to say that most growing organizations struggle even to do that. So, if you're growing law firm, or growing a small business, you are kind of evolving. And what you start with, even at the beginning of a hiring process, by the time you onboard someone, you might have realized that it shifted, right?

So, that can be really challenging, because then, hiring becomes a moving target. But in general, people do better when they know what's expected of them in terms of the job description.

Melissa: You did mean, technically?

Tara: Well, I do mean, technically. But I also mean the other. Yeah, it's both. If I'm supposed to get the mail, I need to understand that… I know that's overly simplistic, but I need to understand that I'm supposed to get the mail. And that may seem overly simplistic, but I've seen organizations where no one told the person they were supposed to get the mail, and then everyone's frustrated at them that they're not getting the mail.

No one really explained to them that that's their job or held them accountable to, “No, really, every day we need you to go and do this task.” And then people are frustrated but not saying anything about it, because they're making some assumptions.

So, that is one piece of it. But the piece that we're talking about is in addition to that you have some cultural norms and beliefs, values, your core values, that translate into behavioral expectations that are likely unwritten.

These are the unwritten rules of your organization. Typically, unwritten. The clearer you can get, first of all, about what they are, just for yourself… That's what you and I have been working on, is you getting clarity about what you mean and what you don't mean by it. It’s helpful for you to identify where you have and haven't been clear, right?

And usually, we know what it doesn't look like. As we're getting clarity, if you're taking a core value… First of all, it's getting really specific, like, what do you mean by that? Because the English language is tricky in terms of, we all mean something a little bit different by the same word. So, getting really clear and having a definition about what you mean by it.

And then beyond that, what would it look like if someone was honoring that value in this role? And what does it look like when they're not?

Melissa: I’ll offer one up here, because it might create a giggle for listeners. First of all, we read mine through as a new person walking in. First of all, it wasn't quite as clear as I thought, and I learned that through you. But the other one was like, “I wouldn't want to work here. These are intense.” And one of them was direct. I think the description behind the word direct was, “No B.S.”

The team helped with this. It was something around ‘not dancing around an issue, just get to it and be direct.’ And we value that at the company. That sort of sounds okay. Although some of you are probably like, “Oh, geez,” listening to this.

But what you helped me realize was, you said, “Well, what do you mean by direct?” And I shared it with you. As I kept talking, somehow, what came out was, “It takes guts sometimes to just say the thing.” And especially to me, you know? I value someone being direct.

And so, to me or to others, depending on the comfort level, you’re just kind of are trying to explain it and say a lot of words to get your point across, and really you just mean this one thing. Through the work with you and teasing out some things, we came up with “courageously clear,” because it takes courage to be direct. And really that was my point. It was, can you just say it? We hear value just saying the thing and not having a lot of language around a point.

Tara: So, that's a great example Melissa, of the difference between values as words on a page and values lived out. What is the point or the purpose of this value? It’s driving a specific kind of result. It's driving a specific kind of outcome and behavior.

And for you, it had to do with making sure there's clarity, making sure that we're being efficient in our communication. There's a concern that if we're dancing around it, we're not getting to it, right? Like, we're not actually going to solve the problem if we can't name the problem. And so, talking through that with your team, once you've gained clarity, having discussions can help them see where they are or aren't honoring that.

And if you think about it, we go through value... Sometimes you might go through it during onboarding. Typically, they're just words on a page. But if you really have a discussion with them about when they've been courageously clear, what gets in their way of being courageously clear, and helping them have a conversation, it can really help you understand what they're going to need in order to honor that value.

But it's really important that people coming in to work for Velocity Work, for example, understand that “courageously clear” is a value, or they might feel really uncomfortable. Especially if everyone else is being courageously clear, and they've never had to do that before in their career. It I might take some practice for them.

Melissa: Hopefully that examples is helpful. That is what I meant. And it's such a better description of what I meant. But the core value read “direct, no B.S.”

Tara: You do also mean “direct”, you value directness. And that's okay.

Melissa: It wasn’t as clarifying. That's exactly right. Well, the other thing I was going to ask, as you're talking through this, I know we're leading up to talking about when to let someone go versus continuing coaching and working with them.

But you were mentioning there's this technical job performance piece that needs to be very clear on what is expected. But then there's also cultural, companywide expectations, as well. I was just thinking, should we tell listeners you should do this first, and then you should do this? Nope, it can't really work that way. Because growing is messy. I think knowing all these things can be helpful, but there's no formula; do this first, do this second, do this third.

Tara: And it's not realistic, if you're growing, to have it all figured out in advance. So, the best thing you can do is get clarity around your values in the culture, and really defining, or what I call “codifying your culture.” So, getting on paper, and having the team that you have, understand what it means to live out the culture that you want to have.

And then, hire for culture fit. Because most skills can be taught over time. Now I understand that doesn't feel that way when you are... And I know that sometimes you have to have a technical certification or degree. Beyond that, a lot of skills can be taught.

But culture fit is really difficult to get. And that's why the hire slow piece. But you can't hire slow if you don't have this in place. Because then you're not really sure what you're looking for. It's kind of, “I don't know, it feels right. It doesn't feel right.” You can get sucked up in liking someone as opposed to really being clear about this filter of your values.

Because from the work that you and I have done, Melissa, we should be able to take this and design some really good interview questions and scenarios that would help you discern where they fall on this scale of these values.

These aren't right or wrong questions. Someone being courageously clear in a different culture, that directness would maybe get you in trouble. You know? And so, it really helps you assess where they fall, and how good of a fit they likely are coming in. And then you can work from there.

The clarifying of their actual job role, get as close as you can, and then continue to review it every three to six months, if you're growing. To say, is it still relevant?

Melissa: Okay, that's actually helpful that you said you could put together interview questions. I was just going to ask for people wondering, should you have core values as a part of the interviewing process? But that's the way, I guess, to infuse it. Is to design some questions that will give you insight.

One thing I shared with you, is that I didn't even have that. But we just hired someone new. And because I've been doing this work with you, I was looking through a different lens in the interview process. I could sniff out very quickly… There were three candidates, top candidates. And the one candidate that we hired, I could just smell it that she lined up naturally or more innately with the core values that we have than the other two. So, that was cool because I hadn't had that before. Just you helping me clarify the core values, it helped me use them better and differently.

Tara: You need to be really thoughtful and intentional. If you haven't done the core values work, in general, I'd recommend doing that. And then, once you do it, continue to revisit it, especially before hiring, a round of hiring, or onboarding. Just to get really clear about what it means now.

Because we could do this work, and six months later your organization looks a little bit different. And there's different kinds of behaviors that you're going to pull out within each of these values. So, the value itself doesn't change, but the expression of it might, based on your growth and changes in the organization.

Melissa: So wild. So, there has to be clarity. And then, the main reason I wanted to ask you this question, and maybe I'm asking this too soon, but I'm going to throw it out there now. I was mentioning to you before we started the recording that, to me, it's a relationship between you and the employee, or the team member.

And when is it the right time to give up, so to speak, on the relationship? Because when I think about this in personal relationships, like marriage… When I was younger, I was married. I have been divorced. I know what it's like to go through the deep questioning, do we keep trying or not? And the relationship I have now, it's never been anywhere near that.

But I will do whatever it freakin takes for this marriage that I'm in right now. And that's not healthy to have with a team member. So, we know that. But what's the line? What’s the, the word that you've used before is boundary, to know like, “Okay, it's time to let this go.” I

Tara: I think it's tempting to look at. Especially as small business owners, because our business is personal. We put a lot of ourselves and our identity into our work when we have started something or we are responsible for something. And can take responsibility for everything in that world, including our employees. Including the relationship we have with our employees, right?

So, some people will view employees as family. And while close relationships and trust are really important, trust is paramount in a workplace. They are not family, it's not healthy for you or them to look at them as family.

And that's because families are dysfunctional. I mean, there are some really healthy families out there. But most of our families have some dysfunction. And it keeps us from true accountability, honesty, and real trust, when we view people as family.

It creates a false sense of loyalty, as if them staying there at any cost or you keeping them in any cost is somehow the most important thing. You know, the most important thing isn't for you to keep them there at any cost. You may be holding them back from another opportunity that would be a better fit for them; a better fit for their goals, their strengths, their future.

And them leaving, is also not necessarily a sign of disloyalty. In some cases, it's a blessing, right? For them to move on and us to really rethink what we need in the organization. So, that view of family and loyalty, I see it in pockets of different cultures all the time, but it is not a healthy view of work.

Melissa: Hmm-mm, I was going to say, there's been retreats before... I don't have a specific client in mind, I don't remember when this has come up. But I think actually sometimes in their values, they'll have some family oriented, I don't even know what the word is that they would have used.

I'm like, no. No one wants a drunk uncle in their basement, right? That's not what we're doing here. But we're a team, and a team matters. You're talking about this much more eloquently than I can. Because you do care a lot about your team. Most of the people I work with care a lot about the team.

And it seems like there's this… What is the boundary that makes sure that there isn't codependency happening or dependency happening? Where you don't want to let it go because you don't want to hurt them, or you don't want to put them out? The loyalty, at that point, has shifted from the health of the business to the people. It's blurry, I guess. I mean, I'm not necessarily sure it’s wrong, that's what I was going to say.

Tara: One of the goals as a leader, your employees need to know you care about them as people, right? And that does creep over into codependency when you have somehow become the owner of their destiny. You've somehow, whatever you choose somehow impacts the totality of their identity and their future. It's not healthy.

I think that you whatever family system you grew up in, probably you can translate that into business, and kind of see where maybe some of that thinking comes in. But your employees, there needs to be boundaries also for them to have a healthy work-life balance. There needs to be some boundaries around what's expected in terms of how much they give of themselves.

It's interesting, I was just listening to someone talk about generations and their relationship with work. So, I'm not going to get this all the way, right. But Boomers worked to survive. Gen X, which I fall in, worked for a lifestyle, but our identity was still in our work. Gen Z, has a lifestyle and sometimes work as a part of it. But they do not identify with their work in terms of getting all of their identity from work.

Which is part of what we're seeing around “quiet quitting” and some other issues that are going on. And then, those of us who do identify with their work are so offended that they could have a boundary between their identity and their work. We think that there's an issue with their work ethic.

There might be, but part of the issue is that they don't necessarily identify or get their value and worth and affirmation from their work, which is foreign to those of us who grew up that way.

Melissa: Right. Oh, that is fascinating.

Tara: Which is a whole other topic. But in terms of how much to invest. So, on one side, you can go too far one way. Where I'm going to take complete responsibility for the wellbeing of this person forever and ever. You hired them; it's a contract. It's an agreement. It's a partnership; it is not a marriage.

Workforce statistics show people stay in positions about three years. So, if someone stays longer, and there's growing, and it's working; awesome. But people don't look at work the same way they used to. And so, when we look at it as family, it's not serving us well.

On the other hand, you have to care and they need to know you care. And one thing that I see happen with leaders, in general, is they're really frustrated with someone. It hasn't been working for a while. And they are like, “When do I give up?”

But when I sit down to talk to them, have they actually clarified expectations? Have they actually coached and helped that person understand what success looks like? Maybe not. And so, you're ready to give up because you're exhausted holding all of this frustration. But is it time to give up on the employee? Probably not, if you haven't been fair in communicating clearly with what you expect.

Melissa: Tara, I feel like this is why people need you, though. Because I'm just thinking about situations that I've been through. And I know that other people listening have been to the same thing. So, you get to that point where you're tired, and the frustration is high. And they might know that, the team member might know that.

And if you look at yourself in the mirror… Because I have a tendency to do that. I don't think I'm perfect at it. But I do tend to think about where am I responsible here? And if I ask myself that question in a moment like that, or at a time like that, and I think, “Well, I'm not clear enough,” and I can honestly say that. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to get clearer.

Then it feels like, “Well, then, let's cut this loose. Because I don't know what to do.” I mean, it feels like almost all hope is lost. Because if I don't know how to get clearer, how am I supposed to improve? And I could try, but I've been trying to get clearer.

And so, that's where, to me, the value of having someone, a resource like you, that focuses on team dynamics is so valuable. Because it takes the cognitive load out of, what is my next step here? If I do believe I have improvement to do, A. I don't have the time. What am I going to do? Sit and do a bunch of research to figure out what I should do?

And then, I don't even know if the resource that I'm finding, that I like, like shiny object, is the right thing to focus on. Having someone like you in their corner to rely on in instances where you feel stuck, and you have a hunch that you shouldn't give up on this person. But you also are at a crossroads that you don't have the time, or the bandwidth, or the knowledge, or the resources to do what's right, next.

Tara: If you don't have someone to help you think, maybe objectively and expertly, with the situation. And maybe you have someone who you've been wrestling with, you feel like you've been wrestling with, even if it's just in your mind.

An exercise that can be really helpful that I learned from my coach years ago, is to on a maybe weekly basis, just have a Word document or a journal and just write a few sentences about how the week went with that person. How you feel. And if you had to make a decision today, would they stay or would they go?

Because then, over time, even though it's subjective, you're going to get an objective view of what has it looked like consistently. And sometimes you're going to say, “Okay, for every week, for three months in a row, this isn't working,” then it probably really isn't working, and it's time to go.

It also helps you spot patterns. So, in lieu of a coach to help you kind of think through this, this is a trick to help yourself. You might be able to spot patterns. When this specific thing happens, or this specific timeframe because of the cadence of our work, I get really frustrated, and I'm not sure that this person is the right fit.

You then might also be able to analyze, maybe it's just the work duties. Maybe they're a fit for our culture, but this particular kind of work they're doing isn't a good fit and we need to look at making some adjustments. So, it can help you take a more objective view of what's going on.

Melissa: That's true. I love that you offered that so people don't feel like they have to hire somebody to help with this. Although if you can, I don't know why, I literally don't know why people wouldn't hire you. But I was just thinking about the scenario that I've been in, where it was shifting the responsibilities, the actual duties, and that is a fix.

However, the hard thing is, that if that's the truth and duties would need to be adjusted, but your company doesn't have a need at the moment for the duty, then the writing’s on the wall, I think. That person may be no longer a fit.

Tara: Sometimes your company evolves out of the need that you hired that person for. That happens more often in a startup or small business situation. Because what we need to get through this season is going to look different than what we need two or three years from now. And giving yourself permission as a business owner to shift and change for the growing needs of your organization is key.

You aren't doing a disservice to the person, especially if you're being honest with yourself and then, them. Right? But this is also where those cultural norms come in. Something I didn't mention with that exercise, if you know what your values are, when you're making that weekly journal entry, you can ask yourself, is this person aligning with these values this week? And over time, you can get an objective view to of whether or not, or where, they aren't aligning?

And then the trick is, can you coach in real time? Like, hey, this week we were dancing around issues all week, and here's the impact on the team. How can we work together on this “courageously clear”? What would be helpful? And then, being able to say, “This is an area that we have to see improvement in. This is a non-negotiable in the long run. So, what do you need, to get there?”

Melissa: This almost sounds in line with, I think it's commonly called a performance improvement plan or performance management; a PIP and a PMS. Okay. But I do think it does help to get organized around… It seems like there's a prescription out there, what the PIP should look like. But it feels like every organization has an opportunity to clarify that for themselves.

But in whatever your plan is, if you're having repeated issues come up and you are clear on your values, do you think… Even with a journaling exercise… Deciding to meet once you have a little more clarity, and you can articulate, not just fire off at them, but you can articulate exactly the thorn here.

Then it's worth a meeting and saying, “Okay, this is we're going to do. We're going to meet now. We're going to discuss these few things. We're going to come to an agreement on how I can support and help, and how you're going to shift into this. And then, we're going to meet 30 days from now.” Sort of laying it out probably makes the owner feel safe, as well as maybe the employee.

Tara: Yeah, I think it depends on the employee. I think there's a real power in laying it out so clearly that they get to choose. And this is where it's a relationship. I get to choose, as an employee, if you're clear, I get to choose to intentionally step up in these ways so that I can meet these expectations. Or, I get to choose to say no. Or, I get to choose through my actions to say no, right?

When you're having these conversations by the way, another tip is at the end of the conversation, ask them what they're taking away from the conversation. Because you can say all the words but if they are feeling scared, and they are going into the fight-or-flight aspect of their brain, they're only hearing it through the filter of any past trauma or issues that they've had. And they haven't heard anything clearly, that you're saying.

So, you want them to be able to repeat back to you. I'm not talking about in a childlike way. Just, “Hey, I want to make sure we're on the same page. What are you taking away from today? What's important for you to remember about this conversation?” So, that you have an opportunity to continue clarifying.

You know, I had a client recently who had someone who honestly could not hear clear feedback because of their own past work trauma; just could not hear it. And they had to separate ways because this person could not regulate her own emotions enough to hear the feedback so that she could make the improvement. And it's sad. And it's tragic, because this person has great talent.

But until this person gets the help that they need, that isn't the burden of the employer. You can encourage them. You can be clear. You can even maybe provide resources; Align has a counselor, a workplace counselor. So, you can provide resources for that, but you don't have to take responsibility for their growth, that is on them.

Melissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I was thinking, a lot of people, what I’ve noticed when people talk about their performance improvement plans that they have, like their version of it, the vibe that I get from people is that they put them on it to create some documentation before firing.

Tara: And that’s the vibe that the employee gets too.

Melissa: I do actually want to create our version of that inside of the company. But I want it to be very upfront that… I had somebody once tell me, “Do not put someone on a performance improvement plan, if you don't think they're going to improve. If you feel like all hope is lost, don't do it just for documentation reasons. That's not going to turn out well. And it's a waste of everybody's time.”

And so, when I think about how cool would it be if you had a culture that when there's an improved performance improvement plan, it's coaching. Maybe you’re not calling it a performance improvement plan? I don't know. Calling it something different that feels more meaningful for the person, and some mentorship and some coaching instead of, “You're on a track out, baby.”

Tara: Well, this can go kind of deep in a different direction. But do you have development plans for all your staff? Because then there's an opportunity to help everyone identify opportunities. As well as an opportunity to go back to people who are really struggling to be more clear.

But then, there's a culture and expectation that, “Everyone has one of these, I'm not singled out. I'm not getting special attention because I'm struggling. Everyone has an opportunity to learn where they have opportunities to grow and develop, and here are mine.”

So, it takes a little more time and intention. But if you think about it, everyone in your organization could use some coaching from you, some attention from you. Because everyone will do better when they understand where you're going as an organization.

And most people crave time with their supervisor. So, if you spend a little bit of time putting together some thoughts around growing opportunities… And that can look like anything from, “Pursue this certification because that will help you in your future career role.” To, “We need to work on how you handle conflict in the workplace.”

But if everyone gets one of those, then it becomes a norm.

Melissa: It’s almost like being an accountant that's proactive and forward-looking, versus an accountant is just looking backwards for tax purposes, to file taxes. Like, a development plan is proactive with development. And a coaching plan or performance improvement, whatever you want to call it, is more reactive to the problems. Is there a place for both?

Tara: Yes, I do believe there's a place for both. And I've used PIPs before, performance improvement plans, when I've been a supervisor. If you haven't been coaching them, and you've moved straight to a PIP, it's going to feel pretty abrupt to everybody. And it will feel like a last morning. And it's okay. You might be at the point where you have had conversations and this is where you're at. Or, the infraction was serious enough that they need to know that this can't continue.

I will be interested to see, with the way the workforce is going, how people respond to PIPs. I think it really depends on, obviously the employee, but I think be ready for someone to leave if you're going to put them on a formal PIP. They may not stick around long enough for you to cross that T.

Melissa: Something I'm instituting, just recently, is having one-on-ones with each team member. It's been sporadic before. Before it was just like, always touching base, always as needed. And a lot of communication kind of going back and forth. That was okay, up to a point. We can't survive on that now. So, we are starting one-on-ones.

And I would imagine that the odds are decreased that you will need anything like a performance improvement plan, if you're meeting consistently with the person anyway. And I don't know, it sounds different than a development plan. But the weekly feedback, and…

Tara: If you are intentional with that time, then I would say yes. If during that time, you're having real conversations about their development, their performance. If they have a chance to ask questions. And if they're bringing things to you, and you have an expectation that they do and help hold them accountable to that. If you're giving recognition for the things they're doing well, and being honest when things haven't gone as well, then yes.

But that is more about having kind of a coaching relationship with your employees. And I don't remember if I mentioned this last time, but in general, the workforce shift, this was happening pre-pandemic, people want a coach and not a boss.

Melissa: Hmm. No, you didn’t mention that. Okay, yeah.

Tara: Gallup has researched about seven workforce shifts, and that's one of the biggest one; people want a coach, not a boss. And if you think about the positioning of that, it's, “I'm for you. I'm with you. I'm alongside you.” There's a relationship there. And it's about helping people succeed. If people are feeling that, and you've earned the right to have a performance conversation, you've earned the right…

Because they know you care about them and their success, then when you say, “Hey, there's something we need to talk about,” they might not enjoy it. But they're going to be more open to it if they feel like it's coming from a place of relationship, as opposed to your frustration.

Melissa: I love that; people want a coach, not a boss. Yeah. That also does help put a boundary because a coach does not... It's not family; you can't coach your family. You can't. It doesn’t go well.

Tara: No. Ask my husband.

Melissa: Yeah, same. And vice versa. I mean, he has points that maybe I need to hear. I mean, I'm not total brat, but if it was coming from someone else, it would land…

Tara: Oh my gosh, don't you love those conversations where all of a sudden someone's telling them something? And then, they're like, “Did you know? And you're like,” Nope, never heard that before in my life.”

Melissa: Yeah, totally. So, that does kind of help form the boundary of ‘this is a team not a family.’ Like be their coach, not their boss. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, family is complex enough, with the one you have an origin. I don't need another family. But I would love to be part of a team. Right?

Tara: A really healthy, thriving team. Everyone wants that. Everyone in the world wants a good job, with a great boss who acts like a coach, and a great team. Everyone wants that. And the people who don't have had maybe really horrible experiences with it.

Melissa: I have a question about, just to see your opinion on it, the CEO I used to work for… I actually don't know; I think this was true. Actually, there may have been instances this wasn't true. But what he used to say was, “You'll never get fired for numbers, you will get fired for your attitude.” And does that feel healthy?

Tara: I think it depends on what that meant. Were you allowed to have a reaction? Were you allowed to have emotions? Because I've been in cultures where you could get fired for your attitude, meaning you're not allowed to push back or point out things that were negative. It becomes more of a toxic positivity environment.

Melissa: I do think there was some of that going on. Yeah.

Tara: So, I don't think that's healthy. In order for you to really grow as a leader, you need to be aware. And in order for you to gain self-awareness, there has to be a culture of psychological safety. Where people are allowed to speak up, disagree, push back. And that's uncomfortable. It’s uncomfortable because it slows down what we think of as progress. In the long run it doesn't, but in the short term, it can feel like it slows things down.

Melissa: Another question that I have. And then, there's a point that I want to bring up that you told me, that I thought that was really helpful. So, I'm just making a note to myself. One other thing I wanted to ask was, I'm sure that not every one-on-one needs to look the same. So, there's not a blueprint for how a one-on-one should look like, if you're going to do weekly one-on-ones.

But do you have any elements that need to be in there? You mentioned already, I wrote down; development, performance; like topics or things that you can touch on. Development, performance, recognition. What else? Or, is that it?

Tara: What's getting in their way? I think asking them to report their own wins, like, what are some wins from the last week? And what were some challenges? What's in their way as they look ahead? It helps further cement their idea of you as a coach as well, if they're coming with those kinds of insights about their own work.

Melissa: Yeah, definitely. Performance. So, in some cases, going over numbers, potentially. If they’re responsible for certain members.

Tara: A lot of one-on-ones end up being working sessions. They might just need answers from you. They've got a whole list of things that you need to, “Okay, on this project X-Y-Z. And on this project…” you know, whatever.

Melissa: Is that okay?

Tara: Yeah, that's okay. Just make sure that that isn't the only thing your one-on-one’s about. Or, if that's all you have time for weekly, maybe monthly, you have a longer one-on-one where you are having this more intentional conversation.

Melissa: Yeah, that makes sense. I was going to say, maybe that means there's a missing meeting. If they’re using the one-on-one time just to get answers every single time. Maybe there needs to be a department meeting, or something where the people are getting their answers. But I like the idea of a monthly longer one, too.

The other thing I was going to ask. So, thanks for those tips and pointers for me. And then hopefully, it helps listeners too. You mentioned to me, I was having a really hard time at a certain moment, and you said, “Sometimes the hill’s just too steep to climb.” And that gave tremendous relief, because I just could not get right inside about some of the options I was considering with a team member. I was struggling.

And also, because I was struggling, it also felt like, “Get strong sister. Pull your big girl pants on. You're going to have to do something here, that's not going to be comfortable.” And you saying that to me, in that moment, was really meaningful because it put an option back at my court that I didn't know that I had.

It is okay to make a call, even if maybe you could do more development, and you could keep trying, and you could whatever, keep going, keep trying, keep getting better, keep developing. Until maybe at some point, you'll see that it's not you, it's them. I don't know, that it's just not going to fit.

But you saying that to me took the pressure off. Like, I get to decide if this hill is too steep to climb, for me and for where I am and where the business is, or not. And that's where I am. And that was freeing. I don't know if you want to say more to that. Or, I don't know if you came up with that, in that moment when you were talking to me, or if that's something that you say often to people.

Tara: I think it was in the moment, but I've used it since. So, thank you for that. But in general, it is okay to give yourself permission to say, “It's enough. I've put what I can into this. Into figuring this out. Into making this work. I haven't seen progress from the other person. It was going to be too heavy of a lift, given the rest of my priorities and my capacity to make this work. So, we need to be done.” You should be able to give yourself permission to do that.

I would say if you're a listener and you're thinking, relief… If you're thinking about a specific person or situation, and that feels relieving, pay attention to that. And it may also then, speak to where you need some rest and relief beyond that, right?

So, how do you gain some margin and capacity back into your life, into your business world, so that the next time you have a tall hill, maybe not a super steep one but a taller one, you've got energy for it. And if this relationship, work relationship, is draining everything else out of you, that is also information.

Melissa: Mm-hmm. I think, in the moment I couldn't see. I felt the way I felt. It was going to be this or that. I'm going to keep trying or I’ve got to make a decision to be done. And I felt like I had been trying for a long time. So, it felt like I was at my wit's end. Kind of like what you're talking about earlier, tired and there was a lot of frustration. And it felt like, could this person who is actually pretty awesome at a lot of things…

It's just certain things that were bubbling inside of me. I mean, they knew it, it wasn't just inside of me. Do I keep trying? I felt like I was throwing my hands up. And for some reason, when you said that to me, “Sometimes a hill is too steep to climb. And that's your call, you can make that call.” It felt freeing.

I'm not doing a good job of explaining this. But it was like I had to justify in my head, why I was going to make the call I was going to make. And it needs to be based on reasons that were a lot more than just, “I'm deciding that the hill is too steep to climb.”

And when you gave that permission, “I am the owner, I get to decide if that that's just the case.” It doesn't have to mean that this person sucks. It's not that. I mean, there's a lot of really positive things. There's just this arm of stuff that I couldn't quite figure out.

So, you saying that to me, opened up my brain to maybe different ways to look at the situation. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Tara: And from there, you did end up with a different solution than you came into the conversation with, right? It opened it up.

Melissa: It's actually proving to be already pretty optimal. I don't feel like I'm doing a good job of conveying this. But I wanted to offer that up to anybody who's listening, the fact that you said that. Because for some reason, it helped open up my brain to, “Oh, wait a minute.”

You know what it is? It was a disempowered place. I felt like I had to make the decision from a very disempowered place. This isn't working, no matter what I'm doing. It just felt like, “Well, the writing’s on the wall.” That's what it felt like.

Tara: And you were beating yourself up about it at the same time, too.

Melissa: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It just helped me get creative with it. That was with the help of you, too; to give credit where credit's due. But to look at maybe a different way this could be.

Tara: Psychologically, what happens when we are in that mode, is our brain really operates in two modes, from two areas; fear or security? And it sounds like it shifted you back into security as opposed to fear.

Melissa: Yeah, it was a choice. I didn't feel like I had a choice. And then, all of a sudden when you said that to me, it was like, “Oh, I get to decide if this is too steep. I get to reframe what this looks like.” As I'm saying this, it sounds like, “Of course, Melissa.”

Tara: So, Melissa, we paint ourselves into corners all the time. We do. We feel stuck because of the stories we've told ourselves, in our head, about how this is going to go. Anticipating how someone's going to react. Justifying things one way or another.

We can kind of back ourselves into a corner and then forget, legitimately forget, that we have options and we have choices. So, listeners, if you are feeling stuck in an area right now, what would it look like to give yourself permission to have choices?

Melissa: And to come full circle, just so people don't get the wrong impression. I mean, that team member that I was really struggling to figure out what to do, now is moving into a role that she is excelling at. And I have a new person coming in to handle a part of the business that she seems to be doing really well with. And we'll continue to train and to foster that.

I've heard, I don't even know how many times I've heard, it's about getting the people on the right seats on the bus. But when you are busy and you are running, which I was during that period of my business, you don't have the bandwidth to think about what seats are available on my bus to move somebody into? It's not that black and white.

Tara: Well, and Melissa, this is something we can talk more about, maybe in a future episode. But when your business evolves, sometimes you don't even realize how much it has evolved. Your business has evolved significantly in the last year. And there were still some models you are operating off of from an old version of the business. And so, it's pausing long enough to really think about… And you know, that's something maybe to think about within the quarterly planning, to have a prompt for yourself around that.

Melissa: I was just thinking, I need Velocity Work to host my strategic planning.

Tara: Oh, the cobbler’s kids have no shoes. It's really hard to do for you.

Melissa: I mean we do our best, but… Okay, this has been so fun. I know we have a hard stop, but you're going to be back consistently.

Tara: Awesome, I'm excited about that.

Melissa: So, we'll pick up where we left off. What did you just say? “We can talk about this in another one.” What was that topic?

Tara: The evolution of our business.

Melissa: Oh, yeah. And for any folks who are listening, that you would love for Tara and I to dig in on something specific and get her expertise, email Hi@velocitywork.com and we will take that feedback and talk about it on an episode. Thank you so much, Tara, for coming back.

Tara: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to think about what our next conversation will be.

Melissa: Yes, definitely. All right. Okay. Thanks again.

Tara: Yeah, thank you.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map/ Friday Wrap. If you go to velocitywork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans. So that, week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to velocitywork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to velocitywork.com, where you can plug into Quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.